Point of View: Wishes and Likes

cthia wrote:I'd like the entire POV of Steadholder Owens talking Mateo into leaving the Maticoran Marines and joining the Steadholder Guard and becoming a bodyguard for Abigail. Is that somewhere in text?

I know what led to him to knowing no one else is better for the job, just not "the talk."

nope, it is another of those moments that have happened off screen that most fans would give quite a lot to see.

Hi Cthia,

Yup, some kind of such projection hall certainly seems likely back in the early days when the SL was less than a hundred LY's in radius.

You'd certainly think so, but now the SL and the SLN are just too big of a dinosaur in terms of the round trip communications' loop for it to work much at all the last few centuries.

The problem is that given the sheer volume of space man has colonized, say squeezing at least a thousand light year radius from earth into something within mark 1 eyeball reading range, with the league proper including everything 150-200 LY's from Sol while the OFS controls several hundred protectorates out to roughly 400 LY's, besides sending Frontier Fleet ships if not TG's etc well beyond the ~4-500 LY verge, probably as part of it's anti pirate duties- protecting new colonies, maybe up to that ~1000 LY from Terra [or possibly twice that far] too weak to protect themselves unless they've followed Manticore's example with MCT frigates to prevent filibustering etc.

So we're talking about a sphere approximately 2000 LY's in diameter and with the exception of a few wormholes has very limited communications, ie by the time message couriers arrive, their news is so obsolete it'd be almost pointless to display it, unless "just a general idea" is all that's wanted, which could be more confusing than no "Pit" at all, simply because knowing a couple of DD's were within 200 LY's of some system a couple month's ago is no help at all when it'll likely take a courier a couple month's [possibly four if its 960+ LY's away] to get there one way [up to 8 month's + round trip], then start searching for them, assuming they're anywhere near the vicinity, in order to issue them their orders for whatever their mission is [almost a year after whatever triggered the whole thing]; it'd probably just be simpler and quicker to send fresh ships.

That is, the distances are simply too great [the RMN's "Pit" probably concentrates on only about a tenth of that distance and still has severe communication difficulties], particularly given how slow the response time is.

Just as technology made the then new London Stock Exchange floor very quickly obsolete, I suspect SLN officers tasked with such duties could learn all of what they [the SLN] know from projections on their own office smart walls, without being so public about their orders etc.

The downside of course, is the potential for tunnel vision on the parts of its supposed experts.

I doubt the RMN's "Pit" was designed to show the whole man colonized volume of space, rather only that which was critical to the star kingdom.

We shall see if RFC has reason to write scenes in such a place, rather than say Kingsford's office etc.

L

cthia wrote:

saber964 wrote:*quote="cthia"*Manticore has Saganami Island and its Tactical Simulator.

I don't recall any doppelganger mentioned in the League. Surely there is an equal. Is it mentioned somewhere? It'd be nice to get the POV of the SLN's War Room - such as it is. It may actually be far more advanced than the ships it manages.

Or, perhaps, the SLN doesn't have a "Pit" per se. Their War Room is the pits.*quote*

The probably use old established military academies like West Point, Annapolis, Sandhurst, St. Cyr, Frunze, and Cranwell.

You really think? That would only serve to soil West Point.

There would almost have to be some version of the "Pit." The SLN has so much area under its influence. At one point it wasn't the beer drinking gorilla it is now. And some graphical representation of League Space has to be a must. There may be cobwebs in it now, but I'd be disappointed and surprised if there didn't exist a War Room.

cthia wrote:

saber964 wrote:*quote="cthia"*Manticore has Saganami Island and its Tactical Simulator.

I don't recall any doppelganger mentioned in the League. Surely there is an equal. Is it mentioned somewhere? It'd be nice to get the POV of the SLN's War Room - such as it is. It may actually be far more advanced than the ships it manages.

Or, perhaps, the SLN doesn't have a "Pit" per se. Their War Room is the pits.*quote*

The probably use old established military academies like West Point, Annapolis, Sandhurst, St. Cyr, Frunze, and Cranwell.

You really think? That would only serve to soil West Point.

There would almost have to be some version of the "Pit." The SLN has so much area under its influence. At one point it wasn't the beer drinking gorilla it is now. And some graphical representation of League Space has to be a must. There may be cobwebs in it now, but I'd be disappointed and surprised if there didn't exist a War Room.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Cthia,

Yup, some kind of such projection hall certainly seems likely back in the early days when the SL was less than a hundred LY's in radius.

You'd certainly think so, but now the SL and the SLN are just too big of a dinosaur in terms of the round trip communications' loop for it to work much at all the last few centuries.

The problem is that given the sheer volume of space man has colonized, say squeezing at least a thousand light year radius from earth into something within mark 1 eyeball reading range, with the league proper including everything 150-200 LY's from Sol while the OFS controls several hundred protectorates out to roughly 400 LY's, besides sending Frontier Fleet ships if not TG's etc well beyond the ~4-500 LY verge, probably as part of it's anti pirate duties- protecting new colonies, maybe up to that ~1000 LY from Terra [or possibly twice that far] too weak to protect themselves unless they've followed Manticore's example with MCT frigates to prevent filibustering etc.

So we're talking about a sphere approximately 2000 LY's in diameter and with the exception of a few wormholes has very limited communications, ie by the time message couriers arrive, their news is so obsolete it'd be almost pointless to display it, unless "just a general idea" is all that's wanted, which could be more confusing than no "Pit" at all, simply because knowing a couple of DD's were within 200 LY's of some system a couple month's ago is no help at all when it'll likely take a courier a couple month's [possibly four if its 960+ LY's away] to get there one way [up to 8 month's + round trip], then start searching for them, assuming they're anywhere near the vicinity, in order to issue them their orders for whatever their mission is [almost a year after whatever triggered the whole thing]; it'd probably just be simpler and quicker to send fresh ships.

That is, the distances are simply too great [the RMN's "Pit" probably concentrates on only about a tenth of that distance and still has severe communication difficulties], particularly given how slow the response time is.

Just as technology made the then new London Stock Exchange floor very quickly obsolete, I suspect SLN officers tasked with such duties could learn all of what they [the SLN] know from projections on their own office smart walls, without being so public about their orders etc.

The downside of course, is the potential for tunnel vision on the parts of its supposed experts.

I doubt the RMN's "Pit" was designed to show the whole man colonized volume of space, rather only that which was critical to the star kingdom.

We shall see if RFC has reason to write scenes in such a place, rather than say Kingsford's office etc.

L

It is because League space is so big that I imagine their tech is most impressive regarding a "Pit." What military doesn't have a war room? That would be a toy for Rajampet and the like. How could they pass it up? It's mostly a one time large expenditure, then basically maintenance and upgrades. Show&Tell day inside the impressive War Room would be a way to impress and receive funding...

"If you would divert your attention to here, ladies and gentlemen, you'll understand why we need 250 more SDs with screen."

Something the size of League space simply has to have a strategic way of looking at the entire thing. Considering the power of computers in the Honorverse, and HD capabilities and holograms, even the overwhelming size of League space can be tamed. I would imagine the League war room to be of a much larger size than Manticore's.

As far as difficulties fitting so much info onto the "screen" of a war room. It would be up to the creativeness of the programmer/implementer.

With the power of Honorverse computers and HD and holographic capabilities, I suspect it to be a piece of cake.

Addressing the problematic lag in the communication loop.

This problem only dictates that the League has to operate on a totally different set of paradigms. The League navy is huge. And because of this problem, if it were me, I'd develop a protocol of establishing a core number of posts strategically stationed that does not move beyond a certain radius -- theoretically. More mobile fleets are dispatched as needed. That way, I can always count on Task Force 350 to be positioned at X. Unless orders from on high or some sort.

Moreover, it seems that you are overlooking the need of a "Pit" in planning major attacks, even if only with a large assembled force ready to roll from Sol -- irregardless of where everyone else is.

League thinking would be... "No one attacks the League. The League attacks. We don't need to know where their ships are. Only where we shall send ours."

cthia wrote:Addressing the problematic lag in the communication loop.

This problem only dictates that the League has to operate on a totally different set of paradigms. The League navy is huge. And because of this problem, if it were me, I'd develop a protocol of establishing a core number of posts strategically stationed that does not move beyond a certain radius -- theoretically. More mobile fleets are dispatched as needed. That way, I can always count on Task Force 350 to be positioned at X. Unless orders from on high or some sort.

Moreover, it seems that you are overlooking the need of a "Pit" in planning major attacks, even if only with a large assembled force ready to roll from Sol -- irregardless of where everyone else is.

League thinking would be... "No one attacks the League. The League attacks. We don't need to know where their ships are. Only where we shall send ours."

The problem isn't how to display 2000 LY worth of information; it's that the information becomes months out of date and you need to make sure people aren't giving orders based on obsolete details.

But your plan to tie major commands to central dispatching seems like the wrong approach. Yes, that means that their "Pitt" always knows where those units are - but it means that in an emergency those units may take 2-4 extra months to respond!!
When you've got that kind of a time delay you really have to give the commander on the spot discretion within his standing orders to react to events without waiting for commands from a far distant central control - and with the knowledge that they won't even know about the issue until likely it's all over.

Yes if you pull a nodal fleet out to react to something you need to leave couriers or DDs at your original home station who know where you've gone in case orders do come in while you're gone; it seems nuts to stay anchored there waiting months for permission to make even the most obviously necessary deployments out of that system.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Addressing the problematic lag in the communication loop.

This problem only dictates that the League has to operate on a totally different set of paradigms. The League navy is huge. And because of this problem, if it were me, I'd develop a protocol of establishing a core number of posts strategically stationed that does not move beyond a certain radius -- theoretically. More mobile fleets are dispatched as needed. That way, I can always count on Task Force 350 to be positioned at X. Unless orders from on high or some sort.

Moreover, it seems that you are overlooking the need of a "Pit" in planning major attacks, even if only with a large assembled force ready to roll from Sol -- irregardless of where everyone else is.

League thinking would be... "No one attacks the League. The League attacks. We don't need to know where their ships are. Only where we shall send ours."

The problem isn't how to display 2000 LY worth of information; it's that the information becomes months out of date and you need to make sure people aren't giving orders based on obsolete details.

But your plan to tie major commands to central dispatching seems like the wrong approach. Yes, that means that their "Pitt" always knows where those units are - but it means that in an emergency those units may take 2-4 extra months to respond!!
When you've got that kind of a time delay you really have to give the commander on the spot discretion within his standing orders to react to events without waiting for commands from a far distant central control - and with the knowledge that they won't even know about the issue until likely it's all over.

Yes if you pull a nodal fleet out to react to something you need to leave couriers or DDs at your original home station who know where you've gone in case orders do come in while you're gone; it seems nuts to stay anchored there waiting months for permission to make even the most obviously necessary deployments out of that system.

I don't see it that way at all. What it would have amounted to was the League operating a core of forces as "artificial home fleets" so to speak. What's the difference in the League permanently positioning a fleet to specifically cover their Home system never moving to assist (uncover) than them doing it in other systems as well?

Numbers! That's the only difference. Each system would have had a mobile force and a nodal force. It isn't a strategy made for the RMN or Grayson, or even the RHN. They didn't have the necessary ships for it. But the League did. And that strategy is tailor made for them. Then so many ships wouldn't have been mothballed.

cthia wrote:
<snip>

Numbers! That's the only difference. Each system would have had a mobile force and a nodal force. It isn't a strategy made for the RMN or Grayson, or even the RHN. They didn't have the necessary ships for it. But the League did. And that strategy is tailor made for them. Then so many ships wouldn't have been mothballed.

It's been stated many times that the SLN never has enough ships to put out all the fires. There are ~2300 systems in the SL (~1800 members and at least 500 protectorates). That's 1 active waller and around a squadron or so of lighter ships at each planet if spread "evenly" around. There's really no room for a sizeable mobile force AND nodal forces.

If you notice, all the FF ships we've seen are detailed to either OFS regions, or are a district, nodal force.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:
<snip>

Numbers! That's the only difference. Each system would have had a mobile force and a nodal force. It isn't a strategy made for the RMN or Grayson, or even the RHN. They didn't have the necessary ships for it. But the League did. And that strategy is tailor made for them. Then so many ships wouldn't have been mothballed.

It's been stated many times that the SLN never has enough ships to put out all the fires. There are ~2300 systems in the SL (~1800 members and at least 500 protectorates). That's 1 active waller and around a squadron or so of lighter ships at each planet if spread "evenly" around. There's really no room for a sizeable mobile force AND nodal forces.

Every time I come across this point, I ask myself why they had so many ships in the garage? Since they obviously could have used them. Surely there wasn't a shortage of warm bodies with so many systems.

If you notice, all the FF ships we've seen are detailed to either OFS regions, or are a district, nodal force.

Therein lies the problem of the League. The SLN wasted combat power. There should not have been a separate OFS and Battle Fleet because they didn't work together; they detested each other, in fact. They spent more time fighting each other than enemies. Having two separate entities watered down available combat power.

It reminds me of our CIA and FBI. Overlapping areas of concern and gray areas that undermines effectiveness. IMO.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:

It's been stated many times that the SLN never has enough ships to put out all the fires. There are ~2300 systems in the SL (~1800 members and at least 500 protectorates). That's 1 active waller and around a squadron or so of lighter ships at each planet if spread "evenly" around. There's really no room for a sizeable mobile force AND nodal forces.

Every time I come across this point, I ask myself why they had so many ships in the garage? Since they obviously could have used them. Surely there wasn't a shortage of warm bodies with so many systems.

<snip>

Even if open up the entire reserve, that's only 4 SDs per system, and (since we don't know the size of the subwaller reserve, but know the active FF is supposed to screen the BF)only 2-4 more lighter ships per system. At that point you can have a nodal force, but insufficient ships per system to actually be a threat to a serious power (someone with an attack force of 2 waller squadrons and screen could easily roll every system 1 by 1.)

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:
It's been stated many times that the SLN never has enough ships to put out all the fires. There are ~2300 systems in the SL (~1800 members and at least 500 protectorates). That's 1 active waller and around a squadron or so of lighter ships at each planet if spread "evenly" around. There's really no room for a sizeable mobile force AND nodal forces.

Every time I come across this point, I ask myself why they had so many ships in the garage? Since they obviously could have used them. Surely there wasn't a shortage of warm bodies with so many systems.

<snip>

Theemile wrote:Even if open up the entire reserve, that's only 4 SDs per system, and (since we don't know the size of the subwaller reserve, but know the active FF is supposed to screen the BF)only 2-4 more lighter ships per system. At that point you can have a nodal force, but insufficient ships per system to actually be a threat to a serious power (someone with an attack force of 2 waller squadrons and screen could easily roll every system 1 by 1.)

You're looking at it all wrong. If you free up the entire reserve then try and spread them over the entire area of League influence, you're scoring for the wrong team. Concentration of effort. An important concept in targeting as well as deployment.

And that is where a War Room would shine. "Where" could the positioning of a core force be strategically beneficial and tactically effective?

cthia wrote:
You're looking at it all wrong. If you free up the entire reserve then try and spread them over the entire area of League influence, you're scoring for the wrong team. Concentration of effort. An important concept in targeting as well as deployment.

And that is where a War Room would shine. "Where" could the positioning of a core force be strategically beneficial and tactically effective?

...with a 6 month comm lag. That will work great....