Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 36 guests

Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:10 am

Brigade XO
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3238
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

I thought the CO CLAC and CO LAC Group are two differnt people and positions.
You have a Captain/CO of the ship and you have the Commander-LAC Group.

The CLAC's CO may end up being the Flag Captain for the actual officer commanding a multi CLAC or CLAC plus other ships in a force. Then you have the Commander LAC Group, the equivelent of a "CAG" (Commander Air Group) on a modern carrier or airbase.

You end up with a the commander of the ship, responsible for fighting and operating it, the commander LAC group, responsible for manageing and fighting it and the Division/sub-Division or Task Force commander with overall control -and who must delegate the majority of the actual accomplising of tasks to the unit (like the CLAC and LAC Group).
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:11 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

JeffEngel wrote:
cthia wrote:I should mention, that another of my concerns about wanting to harden CLACs is out of consideration and respect for another element of overlooked resources during battle - the CO of the CLAC. Of course, who readily comes to mind is Alice Truman. You all know that I've always maintained that underneath Truman's bonnet lies a tactical genius. Her skills could be essential during an important, critical battle. As it stands, a keen tactician is tasked with dropping off LACs then removing herself from the battle equation. I HATE THAT. Honor, and others as well, has shown us that one officer can make a difference.

Truman, one of Manticore's most keen tacticians, is essentially relegated to twiddling her thumbs during action. I hate it for her too. She's probably %$#$&%$#@# during the entire ordeal.
Putting a flag officer on a CLAC helps when it is a non-priority target. The officer lives to keep providing leadership - if you want to assassinate them, you're blowing fire from a target you'd not otherwise be bothering on. Flag officer on a SD(P) - two-for-one attacking it.

A CLAC skipper is effectively a kind of flag officer, not by rank but by role. She's putting a hundred little destroyers in the place to do what needs doing, while aboard a vehicle that has wonderful command and control capabilities at the center of a web of recon drone and scout data. She's not twiddling her thumbs. She's delegating, of course, but that's what any officer does, is supposed to do. Compromising her ship to give her some missiles to fire, or to be in a place where she's got something to fire on, is not doing her or her fleet any favors
Aside:
Who else is tasked as CLAC CO? I can't recall any names. On both sides of the GA.

Rafe Cardones, flag captain of Admiral Harrington on Sidemore Station, flagship CLAC Werewolf, for one.

Vince wrote:
Cthia, I think you are making the mistake the US made in Vietnam. Just because you can micromanage your forces, with instant communications down to the individual level, does not make it a good idea. Or else you are confused as to the CLAC's leaders roles.

The CLAC CO in the Honorverse is the person who directs the LAC wing to attack or defend enemy forces, and provides the general tactical plan on how that should be accomplished.

The commander that provides leadership and tactical control to the LAC wing once it is deployed in the Honorverse is not the CLAC CO, but the COLAC in the deployed LAC wing. First of which was CPT(jg) Jacquelyn Harmon in Echoes of Honor, where both she and CPT(List) Alice Truman worked out the details of each of those roles responsibilities began and ended, as well as what each of those roles consisted of and how they worked together.

JeffEngel is correct in how a CLAC CO should operate in relationship to the COLAC.

You're correct Vince. I make the mistake of not actually knowing the scope of Truman's responsibilities. I'm remembering the beginning, when the command slot was new, that the reach of each position had to be determined. I was under the impression that Truman formed the strategy of attacks, then the COLAC handles the tactics once the LACs were off. Which relegated Truman to twiddling her thumbs after LAC launch. I was wrong and concede another point in the salle to you and Jeff.

But my sentiment was geared more towards giving the position to someone else already. It's an established slot now. Free Truman to command a fleet. Would that be a demotion?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by The E   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:58 am

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2704
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

cthia wrote:But my sentiment was geared more towards giving the position to someone else already. It's an established slot now. Free Truman to command a fleet. Would that be a demotion?


Wasn't Truman's last post as second in command of 8th Fleet? And wasn't she the one commanding the RMN task force that was sent to Beowulf? I'm pretty sure those posts can be described as proper fleet command.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:25 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

The E wrote:
cthia wrote:But my sentiment was geared more towards giving the position to someone else already. It's an established slot now. Free Truman to command a fleet. Would that be a demotion?


Wasn't Truman's last post as second in command of 8th Fleet? And wasn't she the one commanding the RMN task force that was sent to Beowulf? I'm pretty sure those posts can be described as proper fleet command.

I'm glad you brought that up E. I was temporarily appeased when she got CO of a squadron of CLACs. But I'd still like to see her in a more visible, more intimate role. I'm really not belittling the importance of her command slot. But I'd really like storyline to afford her more page time to strut her mettle in the genius of her tactics. Just my wish. I suppose the same could be done in her present slot, if RFC willing and the situation calls for it. If so, I personally would cherish those battle scenes.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:54 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

What ship classes are more pressing to come out of Bolthole?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:22 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9140
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:What ship classes are more pressing to come out of Bolthole?
Honestly, based on the fact that we haven't seen any real improvements in Havenite escorts (except for fitting bow/stern walls) they are probably most in need of overhaul/replacement.

A Havenite BC probably has a noticeable but not crushing edge on a SLN BC equipped with SDMs, and is outranged by one carrying Cataphracts. Whereas a Havenite SD(P), carrying Havenite capacitor powered MDMs, can easily crush multiple SLN SDs.


But I think it's more work to transfer and integrate the tech necessary for radically newer escorts than the hybrid-build approach that was proposed for Bolthole SD(P)s -- where Haven initially builds the hulls and guts using their normal tech, then integrates tac systems and missiles from Beowulf that add the Keyhole II and Apollo capabilities. So it sounds like Haven (and Beowulf) are going to initially focus on rolling out top of the line SD(P)s; even though that's where Haven is currently least deficient.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Dauntless   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:06 pm

Dauntless
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1073
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:54 pm
Location: United Kingdom

given that a Grand alliance SD (P) is as fast as most Solly BC, they don't need small fast ships to run down and harass the enemy.

what they need is a 2 x4 so big that not even the stupidest solly is going to want to tangle with it.

the difference in construction time is a factor, and one reason why I would have suggested going with Nike BC or Agemenon? BC(P).

But again I think it comes down to the fact a Solly sees a big (very big in the case of Nike) BC and just thinks what can that little toy do to my big nasty SD (talk about slow learners).

they see SD(P) and they are a little more respectful and can do the simple math of 1 SD(P) kill 20 SDs (yes i know they can kill a lot more) and will know when to cut their losses. (i hope)
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:29 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

The Honor of the Queen
My bold.
Nine missiles charged through space, and Thunder of God's computers blinked in cybernetic surprise at their unorthodox approach. They came in massed in a tight phalanx, suicidally tight against modern point defense . . . except that the three lead missiles carried nothing but ECM. Their jammers howled, blinding every active and passive sensor system, building a solid wall of interference. Neither Thunder nor their fellows could possibly "see" through it, and a human operator might have realized there had to be a reason Fearless had voluntarily blinded her own missiles' seekers. But the computers saw only a single jamming source and targeted it with only two counter missiles.

One jammer died, but the other two survived, spreading out, varying the strength and power and shape of the transmissions that baffled Thunder's follow-up counter missiles. They charged onward, and then, suddenly, they arced up and apart to expose the six missiles behind them.

Last-ditch point defense lasers swiveled and struck like snakes, spitting rods of coherent light as the computers finally recognized the threat, but the jammers had covered them to the last possible moment, and the attack missiles knew exactly what they were looking for. One of the six died, then another, but the final quartet came on, and an alarm screamed on Lieutenant Ash's panel.

The lieutenant's head whipped around in horror. He had less than a single second to realize that somehow these missiles had been programmed to use his EW systems, as if his decoys were homing beacons, not defenses, and then they rammed headlong into their target.

Two of them vanished in sun-bright fireballs that shook Thunder to her keel as twin, 78-ton hammers struck her sidewall at .25 C. For all their fury, those two were harmless, but their sisters' sidewall penetrators functioned as designed.

Cardones trick of using Saladin's ECM was genius. But if I'm understanding it correctly, that shouldn't have been possible. Wouldn't have been possible if Saladin had an experienced crew and ECM had not been functioning under computer control. I think ECM frequencies would have been constantly changing - modulating? Exactly what would have been going on with Saladin's ECM if it hadn't been operating in a canned mode?

...
Fearless writhed as a fresh hit killed two more missile tubes, but then someone emitted a banshee shriek of triumph, and Honor stared at her repeater. It wasn't possible! No one could get old-fashioned nukes through the very teeth of a modern warship's defenses! Yet Rafe Cardones had done it. Somehow, he'd done it!

But he hadn't scored direct hits. Saladin's impeller wedge flickered as she staggered out of the fireballs, clouds of atmosphere and vaporized alloy streamed back from where her port sidewall had died, but she was still there, and even as Honor watched, the maimed battlecruiser was rolling desperately to interpose the roof of her impeller wedge against the follow-up missiles charging down upon her. Her wedge restabilized, and her drive went to maximum power as her vector swung sharply away from Fearless.

She accelerated madly, breaking off, fleeing her mangled opponent, and HMS Fearless was too badly damaged to pursue.

Something I've always wanted to know. Why can't nukes get through? If it's the size, then Honorverse tech can't engineer them so that they aren't any larger than laserheads?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:58 pm

JeffEngel
Admiral

Posts: 2074
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:06 pm

cthia wrote:Something I've always wanted to know. Why can't nukes get through? If it's the size, then Honorverse tech can't engineer them so that they aren't any larger than laserheads?

Nukes have to get the actual warhead inside the wedge, some tens of km away from the target, and they almost have to be without even a sidewall in the way.

Laserheads are effective when they go off, at an angle that doesn't try to fire through the wedge, at some tens of thousands of kilometers from the target.

Compare the effectiveness of a firearm that requires 1 foot range versus a quarter of a mile. It's not even a firearm in the first case - it's a knife. A short knife. In someone's teeth.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:07 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9140
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:
Fearless writhed as a fresh hit killed two more missile tubes, but then someone emitted a banshee shriek of triumph, and Honor stared at her repeater. It wasn't possible! No one could get old-fashioned nukes through the very teeth of a modern warship's defenses! Yet Rafe Cardones had done it. Somehow, he'd done it!

But he hadn't scored direct hits. Saladin's impeller wedge flickered as she staggered out of the fireballs, clouds of atmosphere and vaporized alloy streamed back from where her port sidewall had died, but she was still there, and even as Honor watched, the maimed battlecruiser was rolling desperately to interpose the roof of her impeller wedge against the follow-up missiles charging down upon her. Her wedge restabilized, and her drive went to maximum power as her vector swung sharply away from Fearless.

She accelerated madly, breaking off, fleeing her mangled opponent, and HMS Fearless was too badly damaged to pursue.

Something I've always wanted to know. Why can't nukes get through? If it's the size, then Honorverse tech can't engineer them so that they aren't any larger than laserheads?
[edit: oops, JeffEngel beat me to it]
It's not size (laserheads are bigger than nukes because they're nukes plus grav lenses plus lasing rods); it's the distance.

Laser heads detonate at 30,000 km (early series) to 50,000 km (late series) away from the target.
Nukes detonate at < 10 km (inside the sidewall).

The closer you get to the ship the more effective point defense becomes. That last 29,990 km is where PDLCs really get to shine and rip apart incoming warheads. And you can't even count on saturating the defenses because you need the missile wedge up for the sidewall perpetrator to attempt to get the contact nuke through the sidewall; and at 10km wide you can only fit a few of them at a time into the gap between a ship's wedge planes.


That's why Rafe's trick was so surprising; he exploited that the Saladin's defenses were on a predicable computer controlled setting to totally psych them out - causing them to miss what should have been a trivial intercept.
Top

Return to Honorverse