Honorverse ramblings and musings

Vince wrote:

cthia wrote:Ouch! I feel as though I've just been laid across your lap and spanked like McQueen whacked Hamish.

Relax, kzt, Rose. I agree. I accept - that to expect total trust in the fashion that I'd hoped - is a bit naive. I simply find it ironic - that in peace, that in an Alliance, that in trust, is also born suspicion, paranoia, hesitation, uneasiness, caution. I personally can see the heaping helping of irony. And I spoke my mind. And regardless of how prudent it may be to maintain one's spies, it all seems a bit... untrustworthy. Trust tethered with untrust. And that seems, to me, to be a house built of fragile straw. So is life, I suppose. Today's phraseology would be "it is what it is?" Little wonder that I hate that phrase so much, as it reeks of complacence and resigned acceptance.

But, alas, I guess bricks can be built of straw.

However, I still cannot avoid the glaring irony.

I hear my family and friends in my ear now. "You're too kind and decent."

My nieces and sisters constantly say, "You were born a millennia too soon."

Perhaps.

Don't worry, cthia, allies would never do anything so crass as to actually spy on each other.

It's called "Keeping an eye on things."

Or as President Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but verify." Although he said that about the former USSR, which was not an ally at the time, the saying holds true even with close allies.

Note: According to the Wikipedia entry, Trust but verify is actually a Russian proverb that Reagan used as a signature phrase in discussing relations with the Soviet Union. "The original Russian proverb is a short rhyme which states, Доверяй, но проверяй (doveryai, no proveryai)."

But you really can't miss the irony in having to treat one's allies the same way as one's potential enemy.

"Trust but verify," is what the US is doing to Iran regarding its nuclear enrichment program.

Glaring irony is all. Bipolar.

cthia wrote:But you really can't miss the irony in having to treat one's allies the same way as one's potential enemy.

"Trust but verify," is what the US is doing to Iran regarding its nuclear enrichment program.

Glaring irony is all. Bipolar.

Such is how international diplomacy works.

And in any case, both Manticore and Haven's governments have shown capacity for rapid shifts. In the former's case, the High Ridge government went out as quickly as it came in and in the latter... well, not only did the governing system change three times in ten years, they've had multiple unsuccessful attempts at revolutions which caused changes.

It might be a good idea to monitor one's ally to make sure one isn't blindsided by another such surprise in future, however unlikely that seems now.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:You know what I never figured out? What the h-e-double-hockey sticks was Reginald Houseman really doing in the Yeltsin system at that appointed time. He was a politician and an economist. I didn't see where the situation needed either. It certainly didn't need an economist.

If Elizabeth really wanted Grayson as an ally, then why send along a worm and a fly in the ointment. With Houseman, she sent both. And no one can talk me into believing that Houseman didn't turn into an asshole of a worm until the trip to Yeltsin.

Okay, maybe the situation did call for a politician. But it had one already in Ambassador Langtry. Right?

Actually, there was legitimate reason to bring an economist along. One of the purposes of the mission was to demonstrate to Grayson how Manticore could assist the Grayson economy. Houseman was supposed to help negotiate trade deals with Grayson, decide how Manticore could boost the Grayson economy, and work out economic elements of the alliance treaty.

Houseman was almost certainly chosen by the Liberal Party. The Liberal Party was an important component in the Cromarty coalition government at the time. The Liberals undoubtedly demanded the right to name one of the members of the diplomatic mission. If they did make a demand like that, Cromarty couldn't refuse. It's pure political give and take.

The reason I didn't think either was needed was because Ambassador Langtry was there to cover the politician requirement, and Langtry was already the true representative of Manticore. As far as an economist, I really didn't think Manticore needed one, and if so Grayson most assuredly had their own. And there's no way Grayson would have asked for, or expected, more than Manticore could afford or were already willing to give.

But even if Grayson's own economist wasn't up to snuff, I got the feeling that it wouldn't matter to either side whether the Alliance would be formed. Elizabeth said bring back a treaty. And Protector Benjamin's Grayson needed that treaty as well, to live.

Grayson didn't have a choice other than to pony up with someone. If not Manticore, then Haven. Their future survival simply depended on it. They didn't care a rat's ass about the economic realities of their predicament. That reality is what Houseman couldn't understand. Manticore could have taken advantage of Grayson and offered the minimum wage of Old Earth eons ago and offered them the equivalent of $3.00 an hour and Grayson would have gone for it. Survival.

The only question for Grayson was which to choose, and that came down to a single alphabet, R(M H)N help.

And they knew what the Havenites were really offering.

But I suppose Manticore didn't want to take any chances, therefore they recruited Grayson like the sports franchises with the deepest pockets recruited players. Offering them the biggest financial deal that the Havenites surely could not.

That was my original thinking as naïve and wrong as it is. Just for the record.


****** *


Wait. Grayson has a baseball team!

Once more, *mine eyes have furled!

*I love that line from Enemy Mine.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:But you really can't miss the irony in having to treat one's allies the same way as one's potential enemy.

"Trust but verify," is what the US is doing to Iran regarding its nuclear enrichment program.

Glaring irony is all. Bipolar.

Such is how international diplomacy works.

And in any case, both Manticore and Haven's governments have shown capacity for rapid shifts. In the former's case, the High Ridge government went out as quickly as it came in and in the latter... well, not only did the governing system change three times in ten years, they've had multiple unsuccessful attempts at revolutions which caused changes.

It might be a good idea to monitor one's ally to make sure one isn't blindsided by another such surprise in future, however unlikely that seems now.

Now that's a point to chew on munroburton.

I may be able to trust you, but how can I know if I can trust the factions of your government that may overthrow or supersede you. Especially since you can't trust them either.

Damn good point! Critical point!

Now I say. Spy on the bastards!

Because if you can see schit coming in time, you can turn on the fan?

Is there an info on how long Dragon's Teeth can maintain the illusion of a fleet of missiles?

Rakhmamort wrote:Is there an info on how long Dragon's Teeth can maintain the illusion of a fleet of missiles?

Probably not long. A few minutes at best.

The illusion only has to last long enough for a salvo to pass through the enemy's intercept zone; the next salvo will have its own Dragon's Teeth to assist its final attack phase.

Weird Harold wrote:

Rakhmamort wrote:Is there an info on how long Dragon's Teeth can maintain the illusion of a fleet of missiles?

Probably not long. A few minutes at best.

The illusion only has to last long enough for a salvo to pass through the enemy's intercept zone; the next salvo will have its own Dragon's Teeth to assist its final attack phase.

A few minutes sound good. As long as the endurance of one stage of a missile at full burn would be great. Imagine a salvo preceded by a fraction of a second by pairs of Dragon's Teeth, one of which is going to be activated at launch showing very early a lot of missiles and the other of the pair coming up with the second stage drive giving enemy computers fake targets which by estimated arrival time would have higher priority. Better if there is a short ballistic phase where the fake missiles can vanish from sensors so the 'fake missiles' of the second Dragon's Teeth can re-appear just about anywhere in the probable zone.

Rakhmamort wrote:A few minutes sound good. As long as the endurance of one stage of a missile at full burn would be great.

I doubt the endurance is quite that long -- if it were, we would have seen the used that way.

Typically, we've seen Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth activated at, or after, the first Counter Missile launches by the target. That suggests that endurance is somewhat less than a full stage burn. I suspect that both Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth have a limited energy budget and are only really effective with DDM or MDM terminal velocity -- eg they don't have enough endurance to completely cover the final maneuvers of slower missiles.

Weird Harold wrote:

Rakhmamort wrote:A few minutes sound good. As long as the endurance of one stage of a missile at full burn would be great.

I doubt the endurance is quite that long -- if it were, we would have seen the used that way.

Typically, we've seen Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth activated at, or after, the first Counter Missile launches by the target. That suggests that endurance is somewhat less than a full stage burn. I suspect that both Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth have a limited energy budget and are only really effective with DDM or MDM terminal velocity -- eg they don't have enough endurance to completely cover the final maneuvers of slower missiles.

The normal thing is to wait till the counter missiles have been cut loose for terminal maneuvers. Then their erstwhile controllers can only watch in frustration as the EW missiles distract and decoy the CMs' onboard computers. If they'd activated sooner, the shipboard computers would have had a chance to sort out truth from fiction, and target the CMs on the former.

Bill Woods wrote: The normal thing is to wait till the counter missiles have been cut loose for terminal maneuvers. Then their erstwhile controllers can only watch in frustration as the EW missiles distract and decoy the CMs' onboard computers. If they'd activated sooner, the shipboard computers would have had a chance to sort out truth from fiction, and target the CMs on the former.

That is the normal way of doing things. Possibly because the dragon's teeth doesn't have the lifespan to last as long as a missile's drive stage. If they do, having fake missiles as early as the activation of the last drive stage that is being used would eat up a lot of the enemy's computer processing load. Hell, if dragon's teeth had that much endurance and they can be turned on and off several times... I'm going to f@ck the enemy EW so much by turning them on and off several times the last one of which will coincide with the dazzlers firing off.