Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought

Dilandu wrote:No, i'm also tired of that. Please, if it suddenly appeared that KH's have a nuclear projectiles for their guns or equipped with "Standart" missiles - just tell me that it is your point.

It was established (two books ago, I think) that Howsmyn had developed face hardening techniques. It was also established that he had a source for the nickel being used, that he had the formulation, that he's been making high quality steel for at least five years now, that he's producing steel in greater quantities and shorter time requirements than he'd previously been producing iron (far less wrought iron for composite armor), and that he has the rolling mill to produce armor of (I believe) up to 10" in thickness (having started with about 3" thicknesses). The armor on the Delthak class ironclads was face hardened, and the capability was specifically discussed in relation to the original King Haarahld design when the reasoning behind the originally specified armor thicknesses was discussed. Didn't "just appear" anywhere. In fact, none of the features of these ships "just appeared" anywhere. Every one of them (except the power plant) is the direct, logical consequence of a development process which has been going on since before Howsmyn was ever admitted to the inner circle, and the steam plant --- and the pressures at which it operates --- have been a part of the development process since (I believe) the first book in which he did become part of the inner circle.

=2014/10/01=
Hi Guys

Lately, for this thread, the phrase "flogging a dead horse" springs to mind.

Just my impression -- no insult intended

R
.

I'm not arguing anymore. I only ask to warn me whtn the other technology that need a highly specific industry, specific industrial tools, highly trained personnel and enormous ammount of time, resources and money would JUST SUDDENLY appeared as some insignificant detail.

P.S. Poor french, italian, russian and even american (periodically) naval engineers of the late XIX century. For them, the Harvey and Krupp Cemented armour didn't just SUDDENLY appeared, and they were forced to build ships with older types of armour even when the new types were avaliable for some time...

It didn't "suddenly appear". Harveyized steel was mentioned as far back as MT&T.

Duckk wrote:It didn't "suddenly appear". Harveyized steel was mentioned as far back as MT&T.

I'm not arguing anymore. But it appeared that the Langhorne truly was Archangel after all: his holy name could do real miracles!

Dilandu wrote:

Duckk wrote:It didn't "suddenly appear". Harveyized steel was mentioned as far back as MT&T.

I'm not arguing anymore. But it appeared that the Langhorne truly was Archangel after all: his holy name could do real miracles!

Dilandu, while you have made some very interesting point earlier, that between you and RFC, have shed lights upon some parts of the development of technology on Safehold, I'm sorry to say that now you are just getting silly.

RFC has told us very clearly what was the real technological level of Safehold pre-Merlin, and the reasons why it evolves the way it does...

And yet you keep going back to old earth comparison again and again, when it has been made very clear that this kind of comparison is in fact not as relevant as one could hope, for multiple reasons. I'll try to give back some of them just below, but I'll probably forget some anyway:

- Safehold technology level pre-Merlin can not be seen anywhere in old earth history. Firstly, it is more or less homogeneous (at least, much more than what is still the case here on earth) on the surface of Safehold. Secondly, while on certain point they were closer to 16th-17th century (artillery, naval warfare,...), on other point they were more on a 19th century level (industrial or preindustrial production,...). A system like that will thus NEVER evolve like old earth Evolved;

- the Charisian empire is under the control of people aware that technology is their best chance to win against a more numerous Church, and having the will and the means to implement a strong, coherent and targeted research programm in order to develop the weapons to beat this ennemy. If I remember correctly, no 19th century country on old earth had programms that much structured;

- thanks to their access to OWL, they have Inside knowledge on how such a programm has to be made to be successful. So not only are they building a coherent research programm, but they are also making it in the right way from the start;

- thanks to OWL database again, they have access to numerous technology, the way to develop them and a computer able to run simulations and double check calculus if needed. So, not only are they building their research programms in the most optimal way possible to them, they can also, take shortcut in the actual development of certain number of their research, making it shorter to get something than what it took us here on good old earth;

Whan you take those points into account, it seems clear to me that comparison to old earth rate of development is not the best way to do things, and, while things are indeed going a little bit fast IMO, nothing came "out of nowhere" as you seem to imply.

I'm not arguing anymore.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

Potato wrote:"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

No' i simply think thst if both sides in discussion was unable to persuade the other, then the discussion is pointless: the arguments of both sides is simply unsufficient to do the job. So it's better to stop the discussion before it make way to conflict.

cralkhi wrote:I wonder if they really could enrich uranium? IIRC there wasn't much gap between getting the theory straight and actually doing it in RL, so if somebody handed the Charisians the theory...

The problem is that getting nuclear theory would basically require jettisoning anything the Writ has to say about how the universe works. Which is a problem when the Writ itself is still generally unquestioned.

Then you have to explain where the theory even came from. Which is an even bigger problem. Steam engines at least can be (and has been) explained as a logical extension of Safeholdian plumbing technology combined with steam cookers handed down from the Angels themselves.

Also, it seems to me that materials like Pitchblende would be one of those "Anathemas" like white phosphorus that the Writ would warn against, with the result radiation poisoning being explained as a "Curse". And you want to use this stuff to make a bomb that will spread this "curse" far and wide (aka fallout)? I think even the most innovation mad Charisian would balk at that one.