Politics in school, follow on to background needed for HH

Tenshinai wrote:
That´s the point where you start talking to newsmedia and considering legal actions.
Or simply ditching the so called "school", and do it very publicly and referencing exactly why, making sure that the maximum number of people realise what kind of place it is.

"immoral teaching"? Ok, so the story just went from pathetic to "do you want fries with your brainwashing?".
So, how do you enjoy living in the USSR?

Unfortunately, in most cases that question has been litigated already and settled in favor of the "immoral teaching" methods. After all, that is the clear intent of the legislative bodies that passed such laws. As for publicly denouncing schools that follow such policies, it can be called slander and result in law suits against the speaker of such "lies". As for "immoral teaching", religion is encroaching on the teaching profession more actively every year. Since most of them consider questioning authority "immoral", you get "immoral teachings". Personally, I feel that that "immorality" is a necessary part of life. As long as authority has some touch of reality, I will at least check to see if they are right. For those who spend their time in the clouds, I see no reason to bother wasting time unless it is very important to me to find the truth.

wholf359 wrote:From the GOP's party platform in Texas.

"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."

Not surprised.

Of course they want obedient drones that vote correctly and spend their money properly.

By "protecting" them from themselves, we leave them open to the conmen of the world, whether it is some thief or a cult leader. In 45 years, I have not figured out a way to get that idea through to an "educator", which is really a downer, since both of my parents were at one time teachers.

Yeah, generally the thing about "for their own good" is just an excuse.

Being a regular Weber reader and poster here is virtually a guarantee of an inquiring and open mind, so I'd imagine that all here have memories of learning to sprout the official line while ensuring that we educated ourselves.

Hah! Yeah right, i started arguing with/questioning my teachers in around 2nd grade and never stopped since.

And my teachers never came even remotely close to the kind of outright BS that wholf359 has described.
Sure i got a few grades lowered by the few teachers that couldn´t handle critical questions, but i got many more raised.

Oh and BTW, your assumption is flawed.

On another occasion while at a church boarding school I answered a religious education exam question on martyrs by discussing those of other religions. Head Brother was not impressed & I was caned until I bled.

Barbaric. That´s normally called child abuse.

I was always in trouble for solving complex mathematical questions in my head and writing down the answer without showing my workings. Being accused of cheating by morons is never pleasant.

Mmm, i did the same much of the time, never got accused of cheating but i did get a huge bunch of test score reductions for not showing the calculations properly.

Funniest time ever though, one time during a math test, i find myself in need of a formula, and i suck at memorising those so of course i couldn´t recall this one either, so i spent maybe a third of the test time on writing out how to get the correct answer in an improvised way...
Teacher had an ultimate facepalm moment, as i was the ONLY one in class that actually produced a mostly correct answer, it was correct, but because of my method it was not presented correctly (my little oops forgetting about that)...
So when just for once i wrote out how i got the answer i still managed to get half the score deducted for giving what should have been a fraction as a decimal number.
The teacher had much fun using my solution as a showcase for what COULD have been done, when he went over the test results, because everyone else had used the correct formula incorrectly and gotten a completely wrong result(and NO points for that problem).

KNick wrote:As for publicly denouncing schools that follow such policies, it can be called slander and result in law suits against the speaker of such "lies".

As long as you say nothing that they are not already saying, calling it slander is impossible.

Otherwise it´s an extremely severe breach of the freedom of speech. Last i heard, you folks still had that at least on paper.

KNick wrote:Unfortunately, in most cases that question has been litigated already and settled in favor of the "immoral teaching" methods. After all, that is the clear intent of the legislative bodies that passed such laws.

If indisputable lies are being taught, and nothing can still be done about it, then you really need a reboot.
Cheerful...

KNick wrote:As for "immoral teaching", religion is encroaching on the teaching profession more actively every year. Since most of them consider questioning authority "immoral", you get "immoral teachings".

Ok, so you´re aiming towards doing education taleban-style rather than Soviet-style then, how very lovely.

Tenshinai wrote:
<SNIP>

wholf359 wrote:Being a regular Weber reader and poster here is virtually a guarantee of an inquiring and open mind, so I'd imagine that all here have memories of learning to sprout the official line while ensuring that we educated ourselves.

Hah! Yeah right, i started arguing with/questioning my teachers in around 2nd grade and never stopped since.

And my teachers never came even remotely close to the kind of outright BS that wholf359 has described.
Sure i got a few grades lowered by the few teachers that couldn´t handle critical questions, but i got many more raised.

Oh and BTW, your assumption is flawed.

<SNIP>

, why am I not surprised?
Did you earn your site name IE 'Not an Angel' in second grade or earlier?

Poker

We DO have freedom of speech but even with out suing a school can make a parents life miserable if they choose. One simple way is report every bruise they notice as "possible abuse".

pokermind wrote:
, why am I not surprised?
Did you earn your site name IE 'Not an Angel' in second grade or earlier?

Poker

Hehe nah, actually most teachers liked me quite well... Shocking isn´t it?
Of course it helps that i´m usually not wrong.

The closest you can get is really the opposite, one teacher once said my hair was angelic. And considering that i was in my early 20s at the time, it surprised me more than a little. One of the better and nicer teachers i´ve had though so i didn´t mind.

wholf359 wrote:We DO have freedom of speech but even with out suing a school can make a parents life miserable if they choose. One simple way is report every bruise they notice as "possible abuse".

And that´s abuse of power and really shouldn´t be something you have to expect.

Well, it´s "cheerful" to see how, where you´re at, apparently only power counts and that people enjoy abusing that power.
To the point where it´s considered the norm and something that can´t be changed.

Sad.

Tenshinai wrote:

wholf359 wrote:We DO have freedom of speech but even with out suing a school can make a parents life miserable if they choose. One simple way is report every bruise they notice as "possible abuse".

And that´s abuse of power and really shouldn´t be something you have to expect.

Well, it´s "cheerful" to see how, where you´re at, apparently only power counts and that people enjoy abusing that power.
To the point where it´s considered the norm and something that can´t be changed.

Sad.

Now perhaps you begin to get a better idea of why Americans fight back every time someone tries to take away a little more of our freedom. A parent can't discipline a child without fear of jail. Free speech is called slander. So we kick and scratch every time someone says that they know what is best for us. Usually they don't have a clue, but somehow they got into a position of power. Whether it is a hired policeman or an appointed judge, they don't have to answer to the people, so they impose their own will on the law, ignoring the written law. Attempts to fight them end in jail or fines or years long battles, by which time what is being fought is entrenched law. So we try to head things off before they cause too many problems.

It boils down to money. 150,000 people gave 70% of all the money spent in the 2012 election cycle. With that money it was proven people don't use the research avenues available to them. Over and over a campaign would repeat a bold face lie in adds, be caught and not change it. But since it was on TV/Radio/Newspaper most voters did not care.

Now perhaps you begin to get a better idea of why Americans fight back every time someone tries to take away a little more of our freedom.

Eh? You´re not making any kind of sense. Corruption, dishonesty and ego(ism) has little or nothing to do with freedom or the lack of it.

Oh, BTW just a small nitpick... "Americans" refer to all people in both North and South America. "americans" would be the proper way of writing it, as the name of the country is not "America" but the united states OF America.
Similar as you would write "german" about someone from the pre-unification German states.

A parent can't discipline a child without fear of jail.

If you cant discipline a child without hitting it, you probably shouldn´t be a parent anyway.

Laws being abused is normally the fault of who abuses it, not the law.

Free speech is called slander.

If the opposition has the money or influence to buy victory in court or media yes. Does that mean you should always shut up?

So we kick and scratch every time someone says that they know what is best for us.

Except you don´t actually reject authority, if you did, you would not accept teachers proclaiming lies as the truth.

You spend a huge amount of effort on uplifting people in authoritarian positions and then scream when they abuse the power.

It´s quite amazing that your nation is so obsessed with hierarchies. Both creating them and often also denying their existence.

So we try to head things off before they cause too many problems.

And shoot yourself in the foot with a machinegun in the process. Possibly even literally so.
Knee-jerk reactions are generally a bad thing.

And blaming lack of integrity on "others" taking away your "freedom", i find that quite ridiculous.
What´s even the point of having freedom if the society adores and promotes authoritarianism and "might makes right"?
At that point you have the "freedom" to submit to others or face the consequences.


I´m not telling very well i guess, but essentially, with a society so focused on winning and social status, why should anyone be surprised when people abuse the authority given?