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All the other forms of government

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All the other forms of government
Post by biochem   » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:07 pm

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It's been discussed several times that democracy (grouping republics and modern constitutional monarchies together with democracy) is the worst form of government except for all of the others. So how do all of the others rank?

My thoughts:

Best

1. Feudalistic monarchies - power is held on a hereditary basis so that individuals are motivated to care for the country, duchy etc because it is their children's inheritance. The traditional form of government for most of human history and in general worked OK.

2. Government by an elite. Power is ever shifting between cliches and families so rulers are less motivated to care for the country and spend most of their energy fighting one another. Communism seems to work this way in practice.

3. Government by strongman. Power is held by an iron fist. The strongman and his family are strongly motivated to loot the country and steal while the stealling is good since they will have to flee the country as soon as they lose power. Typical government of most 3rd world countries.

4. Theocracy. Government by a religious elite. Opposition is not only opposing the leadership but is opposing God, therefore all opposition is a sin. Thought crimes aka not thinking that the leadership is wonderful is a sin. Initially often founded by individuals who have genuine faith, over time it is highjacked by those who abuse religion to enhance their own personal power. Iran is an example.

5. Anarchy. While a favorite of idealistic authors, in reality it results in every criminal thug having a field day. Inherently unstable it typically lasts for a short period of time.

Worst

Of course these are broad generalities and there are many governments which are exceptions and don't necessarily have the same advantages/disadvantages typical to their type.
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Spacekiwi   » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:47 am

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How about The benevolent dictator idea, as in John ringos yellow eyes and terry pratchetts discworld? find someone who is smart, sane, and doesn't want to lead, and give them the reins. do this every 16 years or so for 4 years, with the other 16 years a democracy. his/her job in those 4 years is to fix whatever got broke in the last 16......
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Daryl   » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:57 am

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Good new topic Bob. I'm not as positive about 1 Feudalistic monarchies as you are. In Fantasy or SF we read about the upper strata of such idealised societies. Historically 95% of people in real feudal systems had a life similar to that portrayed in 3 (aka North Korea).
The benevolent dictator looks ok as long as it's ME.
Democracies are messy, inefficient, biased to those with the money, pander to the unemployable, and are still the best. I myself would prefer a limited democracy, where you have to meet basic standards to vote. Not the Heinlein or Weber versions but one with a wide points eligibility - IQ, contribution to society, optional military service, and so on for about ten more criteria.
biochem wrote:It's been discussed several times that democracy (grouping republics and modern constitutional monarchies together with democracy) is the worst form of government except for all of the others. So how do all of the others rank?

My thoughts:

Best

1. Feudalistic monarchies - power is held on a hereditary basis so that individuals are motivated to care for the country, duchy etc because it is their children's inheritance. The traditional form of government for most of human history and in general worked OK.

2. Government by an elite. Power is ever shifting between cliches and families so rulers are less motivated to care for the country and spend most of their energy fighting one another. Communism seems to work this way in practice.

3. Government by strongman. Power is held by an iron fist. The strongman and his family are strongly motivated to loot the country and steal while the stealling is good since they will have to flee the country as soon as they lose power. Typical government of most 3rd world countries.

4. Theocracy. Government by a religious elite. Opposition is not only opposing the leadership but is opposing God, therefore all opposition is a sin. Thought crimes aka not thinking that the leadership is wonderful is a sin. Initially often founded by individuals who have genuine faith, over time it is highjacked by those who abuse religion to enhance their own personal power. Iran is an example.

5. Anarchy. While a favorite of idealistic authors, in reality it results in every criminal thug having a field day. Inherently unstable it typically lasts for a short period of time.

Worst

Of course these are broad generalities and there are many governments which are exceptions and don't necessarily have the same advantages/disadvantages typical to their type.
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Fireflair   » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:04 pm

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To borrow a line: Service guarantees citizenship.

That always seemed like a reasonable solution to me. If you want to be in charge of society and where it's going, contribute something to the society and it's common welfare. If you're not going to contribute, you get no say in how things are done or what happens. Simply being a warm body in a polity does not automatically make you a viable member of society who should have influence.
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Eyal   » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:43 pm

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Fireflair wrote:To borrow a line: Service guarantees citizenship.

That always seemed like a reasonable solution to me. If you want to be in charge of society and where it's going, contribute something to the society and it's common welfare. If you're not going to contribute, you get no say in how things are done or what happens. Simply being a warm body in a polity does not automatically make you a viable member of society who should have influence.


The problem is that once you limit the franchise, you open up the probability of abuse by the "gatekeeper s" of that franchise, for example by deliberately manipulating the standards to benefit the currently ascendant group (for their economic or political benefit). While all modern democracies restrict voting on the basis of age, that requirement is one that you'll eventually meet automatically and no one can prevent that (short of killing you, obviously). The US also provides for removing voting rights due to a criminal record (something I'm not really in favor of) but that requires you to actively do something to lose your rights.

A benevolent dictatorship had the problem of guaranteeing your dictator is benevolent and will stay that way. Besides that, overly concentrating power in one person allows the effects o the dictator'sf prejudices, biases, simple errors, misunderstandings and so on to affect the country/populace unchecked.
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by biochem   » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:21 am

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A benevolent dictatorship had the problem of guaranteeing your dictator is benevolent and will stay that way. Besides that, overly concentrating power in one person allows the effects o the dictator'sf prejudices, biases, simple errors, misunderstandings and so on to affect the country/populace unchecked.


It also has the problem that it's not very stable. Assuming your benevolent dictator doesn't get corrupted by power and remains benevolent, he/she will eventually die and more than likely his/her successor will not be benevolent.
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Spacekiwi   » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:37 am

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biochem wrote:
A benevolent dictatorship had the problem of guaranteeing your dictator is benevolent and will stay that way. Besides that, overly concentrating power in one person allows the effects o the dictator'sf prejudices, biases, simple errors, misunderstandings and so on to affect the country/populace unchecked.


It also has the problem that it's not very stable. Assuming your benevolent dictator doesn't get corrupted by power and remains benevolent, he/she will eventually die and more than likely his/her successor will not be benevolent.



Hence my idea of limiting the dictators term, and having dictators interspersed with democratic governments. they balance each other out....
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by kbus888   » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:39 pm

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Hi Spacekiwi

I like it !!

R
.


Spacekiwi wrote:How about The benevolent dictator idea, as in John ringos yellow eyes and terry pratchetts discworld? find someone who is smart, sane, and doesn't want to lead, and give them the reins. do this every 16 years or so for 4 years, with the other 16 years a democracy. his/her job in those 4 years is to fix whatever got broke in the last 16......
..//* *\\
(/(..^..)\)
.._/'*'\_
.(,,,)^(,,,)

Love is a condition in which
the happiness of another
is essential to your own. - R Heinlein
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by Invictus   » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:18 pm

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I think that a bit of a mix may work out better in the long run. Picture this....

Lower house/House of Commons/House of Representatives:
Mostly identical to your typical parliament, every block of x people has a representative that they vote for. Some differences in the speakers position that I'll address in a moment.

Upper House/Senate/House of Lords:

Members are appointed from citizens who have served the nation in an exemplary manner. Must be shown to be a pattern of service, not simply a once off. Does not necessarily need to be Military; could be Paramedics, volunteer workers, Emergency services. Just so long as they have proven that they put the needs of the community ahead of their own. Think the sort of acts that would get a person Knighted. Appointments are for life, or until retirement. Appointments are confirmed by the Lower House.

Head of Government/Head of State:

Nominated from the Upper house, and confirmed by the Lower house and a general referendum. Holds their position for life, with one condition;
A general referendum shall be held every 10 years on the whether the monarch is doing his job. If a majority say no, then the upper house nominates a new monarch.

The monarchs main job is to limit and focus government. Either he or his appointment may act as speaker for either house, and the speaker has significant power to enforce the political process. They don't get a vote, but the can get members to stop spending 3 minutes dancing around the topic and actually answer the question from across the floor. Also, should a member be trying to shout over the person speaking, the speaker can have him removed for the duration of the parliament.

The monarch has the power of veto. This is mainly to try and curb mission creep on the part of the government.

So what do you folks think?

"When you talk about damage radius, even atomic weapons pale before that of an unfettered idiot in a position of power." Sam Starfall
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Re: All the other forms of government
Post by pokermind   » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:05 pm

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Of course the Native Americans had the right idea:

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CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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