Attacking Darius:

cthia wrote:I adore and appreciate the history lessons, I do. But before we get off on yet another exit ramp, let me clarify my point as is related to the discussion. The US was NOT planning to occupy Hiroshima or Nagasaki. They were planning to reduce each of them to rubble.

Relatedly, the whole of Manticore will be equal to the ruins of Nagasaki and Hiroshima if this malignant enemy's hand is forced. There is no need to occupy rubble.

Scuttle all of your ships, or we bombard the planet.

Actually... There were US occupation forces in both of those cities after Japan's surrender - roughly from Sept '45 through July '46 (after which the reconstruction was going well enough that it wasn't necessary to keep occupation forces in every city).

And as for not occupying them because they were instead destroyed -- well an even greater percentages of Tokyo had been destroyed than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It took a lot more planes and repeated strikes but, except for the residual radiation (which they didn't fully appreciate the risk of), Tokyo and many other Japanese cities were more devastated than the two that were nuked.

(Bizarrely, as the Manhattan Project started to look like it would result in a working nuclear bomb before the end of the war the US started worrying that their conventional bomber campaign was effective enough that there wouldn't be any cities left sufficient intact to be worth nuking -- so they created a list of cities that were placed off limits to conventional bombing simply so they'd be able to hopefully shock the Japanese government into surrendering when the power of single nuclear bombs were revealed -- and yet those bombs did not render their target cities uninhabitable. Some people remained, and did industry, military bases, and even local government; and thus occupation forces had to oversee them all)

According to a study I found reconstructing the radiation dose received by US occupation troops in those areas Nagasaki was occupied by troops of 2d Marine Division, 5th Amphibious Corps VAC) of the Sixth U.S. Army (and further Nagasaki was a debarkation ports for occupation troops moving onto the island of Kyushu). Responsibility for the Kure-Hiroshima region assigned to the 41st Division of the X Corps, with the 186th Infantry Regiment stationed within Hiroshima itself and additional occupation forces with 15 miles of it.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I adore and appreciate the history lessons, I do. But before we get off on yet another exit ramp, let me clarify my point as is related to the discussion. The US was NOT planning to occupy Hiroshima or Nagasaki. They were planning to reduce each of them to rubble.

Relatedly, the whole of Manticore will be equal to the ruins of Nagasaki and Hiroshima if this malignant enemy's hand is forced. There is no need to occupy rubble.

Scuttle all of your ships, or we bombard the planet.

Actually... There were US occupation forces in both of those cities after Japan's surrender - roughly from Sept '45 through July '46 (after which the reconstruction was going well enough that it wasn't necessary to keep occupation forces in every city).

And as for not occupying them because they were instead destroyed -- well an even greater percentages of Tokyo had been destroyed than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It took a lot more planes and repeated strikes but, except for the residual radiation (which they didn't fully appreciate the risk of), Tokyo and many other Japanese cities were more devastated than the two that were nuked.

(Bizarrely, as the Manhattan Project started to look like it would result in a working nuclear bomb before the end of the war the US started worrying that their conventional bomber campaign was effective enough that there wouldn't be any cities left sufficient intact to be worth nuking -- so they created a list of cities that were placed off limits to conventional bombing simply so they'd be able to hopefully shock the Japanese government into surrendering when the power of single nuclear bombs were revealed -- and yet those bombs did not render their target cities uninhabitable. Some people remained, and did industry, military bases, and even local government; and thus occupation forces had to oversee them all)

According to a study I found reconstructing the radiation dose received by US occupation troops in those areas Nagasaki was occupied by troops of 2d Marine Division, 5th Amphibious Corps VAC) of the Sixth U.S. Army (and further Nagasaki was a debarkation ports for occupation troops moving onto the island of Kyushu). Responsibility for the Kure-Hiroshima region assigned to the 41st Division of the X Corps, with the 186th Infantry Regiment stationed within Hiroshima itself and additional occupation forces with 15 miles of it.

I appreciate the info. There is a lot there I didn't know. I am trying to locate the particular documentary I got my info out of, but I have been watching so many lately. I was under the impression the US did not expect to have to occupy Nagasaki, Hiroshima, and yet a third city that was supposed to be bombed but was not for reasons I do not remember. As a matter of fact, the US was shocked the Japanese were still willing to fight afterwards. I wasn't saying they didn't occupy those cities, I was saying that they didn't expect to have to. But I may be in error because I cannot locate the documentary. I will take your word for it. Your info seems sound. Keep those history lessons coming!

I knew we occupied Japan. I mentioned that in another thread. We were afraid to bother the Emperor for fear the fighting would resume. Perhaps the MA should likewise steer clear of the Palace, as a target, but who thinks that would happen.

But I still don't think the MA will bother with occupation.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:The MA has not captured or established any bases near the enemies Home System. But with their total stealth, do they have to? With their total stealth, an entire operation can theoretically be hidden from prying eyes almost under prying noses.

If Darius can get as much lead time that it is about to be attacked as the RMN did with Operation Raging Justice, can they take advantage of the dispersal of the GA fleet?

If the LDs are in place and poised to attack and they get wind of an operation against Darius is close, can and should the MA wait until those forces depart for Darius - thus weakening the MBS - before attacking.

Can they then, at the very least, force a stalemate? Can a stalemate exist?

Stalemate = You control our orbitals. We control yours.

Well, that's one possibility.

The other is to position ammo ships out in the Oort Cloud and push all the spiders out somewhere. Like way out of the plane, which also allows you to run laser comms for planning.

Oh, and you ensure that all the graser torps you can't fit on the spiders are deployed far enough out from the planet that they won't get spotted.

Then Honor Harrington shows up and camps out to intimidate and reduce the defenses.

Since they are expecting something like what happened the last time you give it to them. Lots of missiles etc. And while they sit their being invulnerable the graser torps from the LDs and the inner system sweep in on them in a coordinated strike, the inner system going for down the throat and the LDs going for up the kilt.

Plus you go after any pickets around the system, timing their attacks to not start before the main fleet strike.

And 15 seconds behind them you have wave 2, and 30 seconds after that you have wave 3. Probably 300, 200, 150 or so.

I'd love to have the LDs coming in 30 seconds after that to obliterate the stunned survivors with SD grasers before they can get to hyper, but that's probably a bit much. But hey, it would be kind of cool if the entire Vengeance! fleet just vanishes.

Death by Overconfidence. The End.

Your post gives me the chills. My nightmares about attacking Darius has just turned into cold sweats.

Like I just posted in another thread, To End in Fire may be an omen as to how Darius will have to be dealt with. Attacking Darius will be no walk in the park.

I am having those recurrent nightmares again and flashbacks of what it must have been like in Vietnam. Darius will be dug in like the Viet Cong, and the GA will take on huge losses trying to hold on to its humanity, before it realizes that it has to get as brutal as the enemy. The GA will take huge losses at Darius. And in other systems as well.

cthia wrote:I appreciate the info. There is a lot there I didn't know. I am trying to locate the particular documentary I got my info out of, but I have been watching so many lately. I was under the impression the US did not expect to have to occupy Nagasaki, Hiroshima, and yet a third city that was supposed to be bombed but was not for reasons I do not remember.

That third city might have been Kyoto. It had originally been one of the five cities picked in spring of '45 as potential nuclear bomb targets (and one of the three set, on May 15 '45, as reserved area which the Air Force wasn't to target with conventional firebombing); the other four then being Hiroshima, Yokohama, Kokura, and Niigata. (Hiroshima and Niigata being the other two marked reserved)

However US Secretary of War, Henry L. Stimson, nixed Kyoto as a target because he didn't think it should be bombed -- and so it ended up spared both conventional and nuclear bombing. (Nagasaki was Kyoto's replacement on the list of target cities)


Alternatively the third city mentioned might have been Kokura, which was actually the primary target of the mission that ended up bombing Nagasaki -- but clouds and smoke obscured it and the mission moved on to its secondary target.

---
BTW Yokohama was not on the final target list coming out of Potsdam Conference; most likely because in the intervening time it had been heavily firebombed and there wasn't much left. So the final list was Hiroshima, Kokura, Niigata, and Nagasaki

The only reason the Alignment did not comment an EE violation in the Manticore Binary Systems wit Oyster Bay was to specifically set up a situation where the SL would have found itself compelled to investigate and get involved. Way too early in The Plan for the Alignment.

Go back and read the text. They knew that parts of (at least) the three major stations were likely to de-orbit and impact the planet but that was "collateral damage" not direct attack from space on the planet(s) by the people doing the attacking. It was a technicality which allowed --whomever---in the League to rule or argue against sending any League investigators to the MBS to find out what happened. And we never see such discussions taking place in the League but we are directly told that this technical avoidance of an EE was part of the planners deign of the Oyster Bay Stike. And it only applied to Manticore as the Grayson targets were all out around Blackbird and any possible debris making it's way to Grayson were vastly unlikely.

At the point the Alignment starts taking actual control of other systems though whatever puppet governments they are looking to use, they will openly not care how many are killed. They intend to restructure and essentialy replace what populations they will feel they need with clones or just slaves who have no say in anything. It is not unreasonable to see the Alignment cast system almost completely cutting off movement of people other than Alphas and designated individuals between systems to further cement and buffer against any potential rebellions.

Kill them all, we don't need the problems and we can manufacture compliant cattle as we need them. That is the philosophy and methodology. It's not "Kill Them All And Let God Sort Them Out" it's "We are the Gods and we can make more of what we need so kill anything that looks like it will object."

Brigade XO wrote:The only reason the Alignment did not comment an EE violation in the Manticore Binary Systems wit Oyster Bay was to specifically set up a situation where the SL would have found itself compelled to investigate and get involved. Way too early in The Plan for the Alignment.

Go back and read the text. They knew that parts of (at least) the three major stations were likely to de-orbit and impact the planet but that was "collateral damage" not direct attack from space on the planet(s) by the people doing the attacking. It was a technicality which allowed --whomever---in the League to rule or argue against sending any League investigators to the MBS to find out what happened. And we never see such discussions taking place in the League but we are directly told that this technical avoidance of an EE was part of the planners deign of the Oyster Bay Stike. And it only applied to Manticore as the Grayson targets were all out around Blackbird and any possible debris making it's way to Grayson were vastly unlikely.

At the point the Alignment starts taking actual control of other systems though whatever puppet governments they are looking to use, they will openly not care how many are killed. They intend to restructure and essentialy replace what populations they will feel they need with clones or just slaves who have no say in anything. It is not unreasonable to see the Alignment cast system almost completely cutting off movement of people other than Alphas and designated individuals between systems to further cement and buffer against any potential rebellions.

Kill them all, we don't need the problems and we can manufacture compliant cattle as we need them. That is the philosophy and methodology. It's not "Kill Them All And Let God Sort Them Out" it's "We are the Gods and we can make more of what we need so kill anything that looks like it will object."

I do not disagree with anything you say. My earlier comments were on a technical point opposing the statement "the MA has not given any indication that they support the Deneb Accords, the Cherwell Convention or the Edict"; because they do and have stayed within the bounds when it suited them. The text makes it clear that they took great care to avoid an accidental violation, while quite happy to let the wreckage fall where it may. What will happen if they fear imminent discovery is up to the discretion of the author(s).

cthia wrote:Your post gives me the chills. My nightmares about attacking Darius has just turned into cold sweats.

Like I just posted in another thread, To End in Fire may be an omen as to how Darius will have to be dealt with. Attacking Darius will be no walk in the park.

Who says there will be one?

For all we know, the battles will all occur elsewhere (this is Military Sci-Fi after all!) and a revolution takes down the Darius government.

Brigade XO wrote:The only reason the Alignment did not comment an EE violation in the Manticore Binary Systems wit Oyster Bay was to specifically set up a situation where the SL would have found itself compelled to investigate and get involved. Way too early in The Plan for the Alignment.

Very interesting post Brigade XO. I missed that important detail. It makes sense that the MA would not want the SLN investigating what happened and as a result notice the defenses were intact. And that adds weight to the circumstantial evidence that they do not care about any kind of laws written on paper. It was because it suited them.

Brigade XO wrote:Go back and read the text. They knew that parts of (at least) the three major stations were likely to de-orbit and impact the planet but that was "collateral damage" not direct attack from space on the planet(s) by the people doing the attacking. It was a technicality which allowed --whomever---in the League to rule or argue against sending any League investigators to the MBS to find out what happened. And we never see such discussions taking place in the League but we are directly told that this technical avoidance of an EE was part of the planners deign of the Oyster Bay Stike. And it only applied to Manticore as the Grayson targets were all out around Blackbird and any possible debris making it's way to Grayson were vastly unlikely.

I recall a passage from someone in the League to the effect that even though technically it wasn't a violation, it was definitely ill-advised. And the perpetrators knew the planet would take some heat.

Brigade XO wrote:At the point the Alignment starts taking actual control of other systems though whatever puppet governments they are looking to use, they will openly not care how many are killed. They intend to restructure and essentialy replace what populations they will feel they need with clones or just slaves who have no say in anything. It is not unreasonable to see the Alignment cast system almost completely cutting off movement of people other than Alphas and designated individuals between systems to further cement and buffer against any potential rebellions.

Kill them all, we don't need the problems and we can manufacture compliant cattle as we need them. That is the philosophy and methodology. It's not "Kill Them All And Let God Sort Them Out" it's "We are the Gods and we can make more of what we need so kill anything that looks like it will object."

I definitely agree. They simply have too much time, effort and money invested. Not to mention the original need to stick a thumb in Beowulf's eye.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Your post gives me the chills. My nightmares about attacking Darius has just turned into cold sweats.

Like I just posted in another thread, To End in Fire may be an omen as to how Darius will have to be dealt with. Attacking Darius will be no walk in the park.

Who says there will be one?

For all we know, the battles will all occur elsewhere (this is Military Sci-Fi after all!) and a revolution takes down the Darius government.

Who says there will be a walk in the park? :scratches head:

Everyone in the forum seems to think so, with the exception of kzt, cnrd22 and myself. It is what prompted this thread. I was so flummoxed by the overwhelming popularity of that school of thought.

You appeared to be the ring leader knee-deep in the quicksand with your zig-zag tactic, random graser blasts into empty space while flying by the planet, huge salvos of missiles on an unlocalized enemy, all while using the GA's superior Accel.

Brigade XO wrote:Go back and read the text. They knew that parts of (at least) the three major stations were likely to de-orbit and impact the planet but that was "collateral damage" not direct attack from space on the planet(s) by the people doing the attacking.

Well, the fortresses around Manticore should have been able to deal with them easily enough. Given they each have lots of grasers, tractors, hundreds of LACs... Or was this during a 'what fortress' phase of the Honorverse?