The Two General's Problem

tlb wrote:If you prefer explosions and deaths, that is up to you. Obviously the author felt that the Malign would also prefer explosions and deaths. I have only been saying that it was not a necessity.

As for people questioning and looking, that is happening anyway. The explosions did not stop anything.

PS: The existence of the Malign was known to the most important people affected and that knowledge is spreading. The explosions did not cover that up either.

penny wrote:I don't know what you think I've got to do with it, but I don't think he preferred deaths. He preferred "no loose ends." Death was simply a way to manage that.

Sure. People are looking. But those people will have to look without the benefit of those "loose ends." The best way to ensure a total wrap up of loose ends is an extinction level event.

Also, being that Houdini was so rushed and ahead of schedule, Detweiler could not afford to risk defection, resistance to ones responsibilities or leaks because of emotional baggage. Emotional baggage is what created Simoes.

People thought they had the time to do a lot of sentimental things on their to do list. Detweiler could not trust people to do the right thing and leave all of their "pets" and petpeeves behind.

Eliminating loose ends is a way of preventing many more deaths in the future by being found.

If everyone on the list had their genetic nanotech treatment, then anyone who attempted defection would die when they could not get their next scheduled reset treatment.

Albrecht preferred explosions and deaths to ensure no loose ends and send a message. You agreed that his option would leave fewer loose ends than the option I suggested, that is a choice you made.

Do you really think that an "extinction level event" would be best to eliminate loose ends? On the other hand, if you believe that "Death was simply a way to manage" problems (instead of the ONLY way), then perhaps you can agree that there were other ways to expedite Houdini with a much smaller death toll.

penny wrote:When Detweiler failed to get out and was trapped, his fate was sealed. I understand him choosing to go out in a nuclear fireball. Essentially, he was like classified technology that could not fall into the hands of the GA.

While latter is true, I don't think he was trapped. He probably had a fool-proof identity that he used whenever he left that island to go elsewhere, like he did to meet with the RF leaders. He was a citizen of Mesa, and likely had no overt connections to the MAlign or Manpower or the other "evil" companies. So if he wanted to get out, he probably could, even it were slightly delayed.

With a non-zero chance of being caught, especially if he came near treecats.

And since his sons are a carbon copy of himself, then his body could not be found dead or alive. That would then limit the movements of his sons. They would not have been able to move around the galaxy at that point. A dead man can not afford to be seen or photographed later somewhere else in the galaxy. Like when someone has a twin. "Hey! Didn't I just see you standing on the balcony? How did you get down here so quickly?"

"And why do I never see you and Superman at the same time?"

Any freedoms that his sons have would also apply to him, so if the sons can get around the Galaxy, so could he.

He could not take a chance that his identity and his involvement had not been discovered. He could not take a chance on what that meddlesome Henke knew. An entire fleet arriving at Mesa?

penny wrote:He could not take a chance that his identity and his involvement had not been discovered. He could not take a chance on what that meddlesome Henke knew. An entire fleet arriving at Mesa?

He had a yacht, why not leave? He was not needed to press the final button, nor micro-manage the evacuation.

tlb wrote:He had a yacht, why not leave? He was not needed to press the final button, nor micro-manage the evacuation.

I think the moment the fleet made the hyper translation, it was too late to try and run for it, with the yacht in orbit or close by. It would take too long to get up to it and accelerating away from the planet and the fleet. Henke must have sent destroyers to the other sides of the hyperlimit to try and catch some ships - she had done so at Meyer. Especially ships that were trying to run.

No, if he was going to still get away, he'd have to wait for the dust to settle (after pushing the button on the Final Flourish) and then leave. Irate like any businessman who's been delayed, but not drawing particular attention.

Unless he had a different extraction mechanism. For example, get up to the yacht, accelerate some, then drop the wedges, change course on reaction thrusters, and coast out. Or get out in a pinnace on thrusters while the yacht was accelerating away, but have the yacht comply with the orders to heave to. By the time a destroyer RDVed with the yacht, he'd be long gone and meeting with the extraction ship. Even if the crew is interrogated and confesses that someone left in a pinnace, that is not going to be unusual in the Mesa system: all the Manpower executives who were in orbit must have tried that.

tlb wrote:He had a yacht, why not leave? He was not needed to press the final button, nor micro-manage the evacuation.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I think the moment the fleet made the hyper translation, it was too late to try and run for it, with the yacht in orbit or close by. It would take too long to get up to it and accelerating away from the planet and the fleet. Henke must have sent destroyers to the other sides of the hyperlimit to try and catch some ships - she had done so at Meyer. Especially ships that were trying to run.

No, if he was going to still get away, he'd have to wait for the dust to settle (after pushing the button on the Final Flourish) and then leave. Irate like any businessman who's been delayed, but not drawing particular attention.

Unless he had a different extraction mechanism. For example, get up to the yacht, accelerate some, then drop the wedges, change course on reaction thrusters, and coast out. Or get out in a pinnace on thrusters while the yacht was accelerating away, but have the yacht comply with the orders to heave to. By the time a destroyer RDVed with the yacht, he'd be long gone and meeting with the extraction ship. Even if the crew is interrogated and confesses that someone left in a pinnace, that is not going to be unusual in the Mesa system: all the Manpower executives who were in orbit must have tried that.

Actually I was thinking that he should not have waited until the fleet arrived, he could have gone when his "sons" left. As I said, he was just a spectator at that point and not needed for the final button push.

Perhaps he was thinking that his time was done and the next generation needed to take over. So he intended to have his burial ceremony like some grandiose modern Viking, surrounded by flames and the unhappy servants slaughtered to serve him in the next world.

But you are right that there were ways to leave later on. There would still be passengers coming and going once things settled.

How was he going to get off the planet if Henke had a silent galactic-wide Bolo out for him? Again, he could not take a chance on what Henke knew. Nobody is leaving the planet or the system if they were looking for anyone in particular. Henke brought a lot of firepower and manpower with her. And a lot of people are on the lookout for the Mesan Alignment. The MA are at the top of the wanted list. He would have been trapped like a mouse if his identity and involvement had been discovered. He also could not take the chance of delaying his actions so that he could wait it out. An entire fleet is hanging over his head. If an assault team raided his hideout before he could act, who knows what they would have discovered. A wealth of information.

penny wrote:How was he going to get off the planet if Henke had a silent galactic-wide Bolo out for him? Again, he could not take a chance on what Henke knew. Nobody is leaving the planet or the system if they were looking for anyone in particular. Henke brought a lot of firepower and manpower with her. And a lot of people are on the lookout for the Mesan Alignment. The MA are at the top of the wanted list. He would have been trapped like a mouse if his identity and involvement had been discovered. He also could not take the chance of delaying his actions so that he could wait it out. An entire fleet is hanging over his head. If an assault team raided his hideout before he could act, who knows what they would have discovered. A wealth of information.

A few posts ago you (incorrectly) claimed that people did not really know that the Malign existed, yet now you try to claim the Henke would know to have a "silent galactic-wide Bolo out for him". How could that be, when to the Galaxy at large the Detweilers were believed to have been killed off centuries ago? There might be hints that a Detweiler is still alive, but how would anyone in the Grand Alliance know how to identify him? Even within the Onion, his existence is only known at the highest levels.

They only investigated the location of his hideout, because no one could understand why a nuclear bomb went off there.

At worst he could have left when his "sons" did.

tlb wrote:Actually I was thinking that he should not have waited until the fleet arrived, he could have gone when his "sons" left. As I said, he was just a spectator at that point and not needed for the final button push.

Hindsight is 20/20. Neither he nor anyone else had any idea Tenth Fleet was coming. They captured the Meyer Sector easily and completed the liberation with no ships escaping from the capital. That's when she decided to move on to Mesa: no one could have brought word ahead of her arrival. It's highly unlikely a streak ship was at Meyer and even if there was, the forces she left behind would have prevented departures for several days.

tlb wrote:A few posts ago you (incorrectly) claimed that people did not really know that the Malign existed,

A few quotes ago per that discussion, they did not. Context. They only suspected. Even now they only suspect. Well, maybe they no longer suspect since Galton. But out of all of the governments only the pesky Manticorans “suspected.” What fraction of the galaxy is the MBS?

tlb wrote:yet now you try to claim the Henke would know to have a “silent galactic-wide Bolo out for him”. How could that be, when to the Galaxy at large the Detweilers were believed to have been killed off centuries ago? There might be hints that a Detweiler is still alive, but how would anyone in the Grand Alliance know how to identify him? Even within the Onion, his existence is only known at the highest levels.

They only investigated the location of his hideout, because no one could understand why a nuclear bomb went off there.

At worst he could have left when his “sons” did.

I did not say or imply that anyone knew anything in particular. Only that they obviously knew something; or the “police” would not have sent an entire “precinct” to investigate. Detweiler is a smart man. It was obvious to him that Henke knew something. He knew the fleet wasn’t there to pass out ice cream.

Really put yourself in his shoes. You know you are the worst criminal in the galaxy on the worst planet in the galaxy. You know you will be castrated if caught. You know it is only a matter of time. But you think you have covered all the bases. Then you “look out the window and see an entire police precinct driving up." They might not be there for you. But what are you going to think when the police sent the entire precinct.

When driving on the highway with an open container of beer or anything else illegal and you see a blue light don’t you panic? Then they drive right by you.

I had a friend who threw all of his weed out the window. The cops drove right by speeding after someone else. My friend only got caught because he went back for the weed. Found it. But a cop stopped to investigate because the tail end of his car was in the road.