The Two General's Problem

penny wrote:You did the same thing to Brigade_XO when he had a duplicate post as if you personally know what the site was doing during his presence.

So you know that he could not have done what you did? Erasing a duplicate post (as we both have done) is much better than leaving both out there. I should have thanked you for doing that, but I mistakenly thought that you could have done better. Sorry about that.

Let's not forget I also chide people who mess up the formatting or the attributions by not getting the quote structure correct. At the moment I cannot think of an instance where you got that wrong.

I gave a light warning not to confuse quantum computers with quantum communication. They are different beasts. Even the documentary tries to explain that notion.

“Most of my friends (scientist speaking) ask me when are quantum computers going to let me play my video games faster? I have to tell them that they probably won’t. We have regular computers to perform that task. Quantum computers have a limited type of data it acts efficiently upon which also limits its applications.”

(Thus far, as far as we can tell.)

However, one of the benefits of quantum computers is that they allow for quantum communication. A quantum computer network, as any other network, has to have at least two computers. Theoretically and as already successfully tested, quantum computers that are linked together experience quantum entanglement. Through magic that is greater than even the author’s pixie dust, quantum computers can teleport their results to the other computer via quantum entanglement. Even if the MAlign’s application needs quantum repeaters positioned in the system whose range might greatly exceed light speed OR it might even exceed the needed range of the application.

I have been interested in quantum entanglement for a long long time. I think it has the potential to affect many varied disciplines, one of which is religion.

I won’t go there.

However, the range of quantum entanglement is a mystery. What is this exact range in spacetime? It is something that is going to have to be determined, much like the speed of light once had to be measured? We will have to answer questions like.

“What is an actual frame of reference of spacetime?”
“What is the smallest indivisible reference?”
“What is the largest indivisible reference of spacetime?”

If two QCs (quantum conputers) are initially connected, then their results -- even over long distances -- would be the same acting upon the same variables.

Are quantum computers brute force devices? Wiki:

No, quantum computers are not simply brute force devices. While they can offer significant speedups for certain problems, they don't universally outperform classical computers in all tasks, and they don't work by trying every possible combination. Quantum computers leverage quantum mechanics to perform computations in ways that are fundamentally different from classical computers, and they are particularly well-suited for specific types of problems, like factoring large numbers, that are difficult for classical computers.
Here's a more detailed explanation:

1. Quantum computers are not brute-force machines:

• They don't simply try every possible solution until they find the right one. This is a common misconception.

• They solve problems using quantum algorithms that leverage quantum phenomena like superposition and entanglement.

2. Quantum computers can solve certain problems much faster than classical computers:

• Shor's algorithm:
This algorithm can factor large numbers much faster than any known classical algorithm. This is a key concern for cryptography as many encryption systems rely on the difficulty of factoring large numbers.

• Grover's algorithm:
This algorithm can speed up searches in an unsorted database by a factor of the square root of the number of elements. While not a brute-force method, it can still significantly improve search time.

3. Quantum computers have limitations:

• Not a universal speedup:
They don't offer a universal speedup over classical computers for all tasks. Many everyday computational tasks, like sorting or simple arithmetic, are not significantly faster on a quantum computer.

• Specific algorithms:
Quantum algorithms are tailored to specific problems and don't offer a general-purpose solution for any computation.

4. Quantum computers and cryptography:

• They pose a threat to existing encryption methods that rely on the difficulty of factoring large numbers or solving discrete logarithm problems.

• This has led to the development of post-quantum cryptography, which aims to create encryption methods that are resistant to quantum attacks.

It is like some people who ask why a GPU is not used instead of a CPU, since a GPU can do certain things much faster than a CPU. Answer, the CPU has a swiss army knife of needed tools that computing as a whole needs. A GPU simply has "a saw" and the CPU cannot come close to the GPU in matters that need a saw.

tlb wrote:
But it does not matter, because it is irrelevant to the question of FTL communication in the Honorverse; unless you can show how to create a Qubit out of distinct gravity pulses. Here is a Wikipedia article for more information: No-communication theorem

That would be the wrong application of the technology. Hence, my warning not to mix quantum computers with quantum communication.

First, if you are certain that quantum entanglement is affected by or is controlled by gravity, or that it has anything at all to do with gravity, then please do submit your theory. It might help to answer other problems. Like the frame of reference questions I submitted. And I do mean that in the kindest way possible. I’d be interested in your theory .

At any rate, using gravity would seem to undermine the characteristics of quantum communication. Defeating the purpose.

Quantum computers are compatible with quantum algorithms. Algorithms that cannot be run by regular computers.

Note:
I have never had any doubt that true artificial intelligence will need quantum computing to even have a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

tlb wrote:But it does not matter, because it is irrelevant to the question of FTL communication in the Honorverse; unless you can show how to create a Qubit out of distinct gravity pulses. Here is a Wikipedia article for more information: No-communication theorem

penny wrote:However, one of the benefits of quantum computers is that they allow for quantum communication.

-- skip --

That would be the wrong application of the technology. Hence, my warning not to mix quantum computers with quantum communication.

First, if you are certain that quantum entanglement is affected by or is controlled by gravity, or that it has anything at all to do with gravity, then please do submit your theory. It might help to answer other problems. Like the frame of reference questions I submitted. And I do mean that in the kindest way possible. I’d be interested in your theory .

At any rate, using gravity would seem to undermine the characteristics of quantum communication. Defeating the purpose.

The Wikipedia article I linked stated that quantum entanglement WOULD NOT lead to quantum communication.

Again, you are the one linking quantum computers (which might not exist in the Honorverse) with quantum communication. The ONLY FTL communication in the Honorverse that the author has revealed is by means of gravity pulses, which seem incompatible with transmitting a qubit.

Given the author's reluctance to make computers of any kind more important in these stories, it seems unlikely that he will introduce quantum communication by means of quantum computers.

PS: I am not in any way stating that "quantum entanglement is affected by or is controlled by gravity, or that it has anything at all to do with gravity". I am making no statements about the physics of quantum entanglement, except to point to an article that states it does NOT lead to quantum communication. I am stating that the only FTL communication so far shown in the Honorverse is by gravity pulses traveling along the Alpha wall.

penny wrote:However, one of the benefits of quantum computers is that they allow for quantum communication. A quantum computer network, as any other network, has to have at least two computers. Theoretically and as already successfully tested, quantum computers that are linked together experience quantum entanglement. Through magic that is greater than even the author’s pixie dust, quantum computers can teleport their results to the other computer via quantum entanglement. Even if the MAlign’s application needs quantum repeaters positioned in the system whose range might greatly exceed light speed OR it might even exceed the needed range of the application.

We can't speak for the Honorverse on this. Only RFC can and he has not discussed anything quantum in it, except for the quantum baffles and the effect that the impellers have on the materials around it. So there is a possibility that he could come up with a new quantum process to give one side or another some advantage. I don't think he will. David has been very good at developing technologies steadily and has not invented a second FTL mechanism for any of his universes (unlike, say, David Brin who came up with 6 different FTL ways for the Uplift Saga, or in Star Trek, with warp drives, wormholes, quantum slipstream, subspace corridors, etc.).

However, you're still confusing what quantum communication can do in our universe. Yes, there is such a thing as a quantum communication system (search for "quantum internet"), but it does not involve transmitting information. All it does is verify that the data arrived untampered and unobserved. The transmission is still done by purely light-speed fibre optics and radio or slower-than-light electrical signals.

I have been interested in quantum entanglement for a long long time. I think it has the potential to affect many varied disciplines, one of which is religion.

I won’t go there.

Indeed, one of the questions outstanding is whether consciousness is an effect of quantum mechanics, which could indeed lead into religious discussions.

However, the range of quantum entanglement is a mystery. What is this exact range in spacetime? It is something that is going to have to be determined, much like the speed of light once had to be measured? We will have to answer questions like.

As far as we can tell and IIRC, the effect is immediate, as if the quantum entanglement had known the answer all along, but it still cannot transmit information the receiver did not already have.

“What is an actual frame of reference of spacetime?”
“What is the smallest indivisible reference?”
“What is the largest indivisible reference of spacetime?”

That requires quantum gravity or one of the other Theories of Everything to explain.

If two QCs (quantum conputers) are initially connected, then their results -- even over long distances -- would be the same acting upon the same variables.

No. That's a misconception of how quantum entanglement and especially decoherence occurs... at least in our universe and as far as we understand it.

Note:
I have never had any doubt that true artificial intelligence will need quantum computing to even have a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

If you're right, then the absence of true artificial intelligences in the Honorverse may be a result of there being no effective quantum computing for anything other than those tiny niche uses.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Such a launch system can be easily noticed and calculating the trajectory is child's play. Once you observe that happening, you vector some drones along the line of flight of the cargo pods to see who's there.

The solution to that is that the RV points are basically random: the spider-driven forts and ships are constantly moving (using their engines, which does put time on their clocks). Unless the drone is following the cargo pod for its entire flight, it's not going to see anyone. As

That is like saying that someone in total darkness who is throwing a black ball to a second person in total darkness is going to be seen by someone miles away. When it won’t even be seen by the third person standing around the circle.

penny wrote:That is like saying that someone in total darkness who is throwing a black ball to a second person in total darkness is going to be seen by someone miles away. When it won’t even be seen by the third person standing around the circle.

No, because I am specifically saying the launch system is not stealthed. It is in orbit of the planet, with the planet as background, receiving bulk goods from the planet and other orbital nodes. You can't hide something when it has to be within a small distance of a known location (a planet) because the spying drone will be focusing on that location. And you can follow any delivered cargo to see where it's going, especially if it looks like someone went through some trouble of hiding the destination (read: the best way to hide is to make it look like it's something else and be dismissed of value).

This will all depend on just how much time those recon drones are spending in the system and if there's any intelligence directing them.

And if the MAlign manages to hide everything? Then the attacking force will be very small. It will be easily defeated, but it will incur little impact to the overall war-fighting effectiveness of the GA. That will just make the next force be that much better prepared and will have spent a lot more time using RDs.

No, the MAlign has to show just enough to make the GA commit a sizeable force that it can still defeat. The problem is I don't see how it can defeat a force that is significant enough to the GA, without incurring significant losses itself.

penny wrote:However, one of the benefits of quantum computers is that they allow for quantum communication. A quantum computer network, as any other network, has to have at least two computers. Theoretically and as already successfully tested, quantum computers that are linked together experience quantum entanglement. Through magic that is greater than even the author’s pixie dust, quantum computers can teleport their results to the other computer via quantum entanglement. Even if the MAlign’s application needs quantum repeaters positioned in the system whose range might greatly exceed light speed OR it might even exceed the needed range of the application.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:We can't speak for the Honorverse on this. Only RFC can and he has not discussed anything quantum in it, except for the quantum baffles and the effect that the impellers have on the materials around it. So there is a possibility that he could come up with a new quantum process to give one side or another some advantage. I don't think he will. David has been very good at developing technologies steadily and has not invented a second FTL mechanism for any of his universes (unlike, say, David Brin who came up with 6 different FTL ways for the Uplift Saga, or in Star Trek, with warp drives, wormholes, quantum slipstream, subspace corridors, etc.).

How do you know quantum communication isn't what the author planned all along? Every time a poster responds in this manner, I take it with a grain of salt. It is meaningless to me, personally. I would never think I know an author's mind. There were some people who would never have believed David would give an enemy better stealth than the stealthy tech the Alliance has. Some people still don't believe that. Yet here it is. You never would have believed in the chance of a spider drive early in the series either, would you?

Now if the question is whether David will introduce Gremlins in the HV, then I'd agree no.

WAIT! There are Gremlins in the HV! SEE?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:However, you're still confusing what quantum communication can do in our universe. Yes, there is such a thing as a quantum communication system (search for "quantum internet"), but it does not involve transmitting information. All it does is verify that the data arrived untampered and unobserved. The transmission is still done by purely light-speed fibre optics and radio or slower-than-light electrical signals.

Did you view the entire documentary? Anyway, it is like Alexander Graham Bell's first steps. Look how far we've come now baby.

Even if it is the most inferior, a prototype is the most important.

penny wrote:I have been interested in quantum entanglement for a long long time. I think it has the potential to affect many varied disciplines, one of which is religion.

I won’t go there.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed, one of the questions outstanding is whether consciousness is an effect of quantum mechanics, which could indeed lead into religious discussions.

I agree. Let's add a footnote to that. Does thought happen in the quantum realm?

Philosophy asks whether thought precedes consciousness; or whether thought is a prerequisite for consciousness.

"I think. Therefore I am."

It is philosophy's chicken and the egg.

Note: Quantum Entanglement answers the eternal question of "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Both.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:That is like saying that someone in total darkness who is throwing a black ball to a second person in total darkness is going to be seen by someone miles away. When it won’t even be seen by the third person standing around the circle.

No, because I am specifically saying the launch system is not stealthed. It is in orbit of the planet, with the planet as background, receiving bulk goods from the planet and other orbital nodes. You can't hide something when it has to be within a small distance of a known location (a planet) because the spying drone will be focusing on that location. And you can follow any delivered cargo to see where it's going, especially if it looks like someone went through some trouble of hiding the destination (read: the best way to hide is to make it look like it's something else and be dismissed of value).

This will all depend on just how much time those recon drones are spending in the system and if there's any intelligence directing them.

And if the MAlign manages to hide everything? Then the attacking force will be very small. It will be easily defeated, but it will incur little impact to the overall war-fighting effectiveness of the GA. That will just make the next force be that much better prepared and will have spent a lot more time using RDs.

No, the MAlign has to show just enough to make the GA commit a sizeable force that it can still defeat. The problem is I don't see how it can defeat a force that is significant enough to the GA, without incurring significant losses itself.

Ok. Why are you assuming the launch system is in orbit of the planet? Why? Why can't a stealthy fort or space station be built outside the hyper limit?

And even if it is in orbit, why would the launch system not be stealthy? There does not have to be a single running light on the exterior of a spider-driven supply transport. SDST? Anybody who opens a bay door with lights on gets shot.

Anyway, even SDs cannot be seen in orbit about a planet unless and until they bring up their wedges. Unless the enemy is going to let any drones get that close to the planet.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, because I am specifically saying the launch system is not stealthed. It is in orbit of the planet, with the planet as background, receiving bulk goods from the planet and other orbital nodes. You can't hide something when it has to be within a small distance of a known location (a planet) because the spying drone will be focusing on that location. And you can follow any delivered cargo to see where it's going, especially if it looks like someone went through some trouble of hiding the destination (read: the best way to hide is to make it look like it's something else and be dismissed of value).

This will all depend on just how much time those recon drones are spending in the system and if there's any intelligence directing them.

And if the MAlign manages to hide everything? Then the attacking force will be very small. It will be easily defeated, but it will incur little impact to the overall war-fighting effectiveness of the GA. That will just make the next force be that much better prepared and will have spent a lot more time using RDs.

No, the MAlign has to show just enough to make the GA commit a sizeable force that it can still defeat. The problem is I don't see how it can defeat a force that is significant enough to the GA, without incurring significant losses itself.

penny wrote:Ok. Why are you assuming the launch system is in orbit of the planet? Why? Why can't a stealthy fort or space station be built outside the hyper limit?

And even if it is in orbit, why would the launch system not be stealthy? There does not have to be a single running light on the exterior of a spider-driven supply transport. SDST? Anybody who opens a bay door with lights on gets shot.

Anyway, even SDs cannot be seen in orbit about a planet unless and until they bring up their wedges. Unless the enemy is going to let any drones get that close to the planet.

I am guessing that he would agree that a fort can be stealthy, but a freight hub would not be (whether or not it was in a planetary orbit). Any station with a large amount of traffic is going to have receiving bays and energy sources and near constant occlusions. Remember that the stealthy skin has to be aimed at the enemy, which cannot happen when the location of the spying drone is unknown.

tlb wrote:Given the author's reluctance to make computers of any kind more important in these stories, it seems unlikely that he will introduce quantum communication by means of quantum computers.

Are you sure it is reluctance? Or is he saving that bottle of wine until its time?

I see the entire question about computers as it applies to the MAN differently. The Alignment is comprised of Alphas. Actually, it would seem illogical to me if the author did not allow a race of Alphas to develop a superior computer to go along with their advanced reasoning. Perhaps quantum algorithms are what the entire "Plan" has been based on for centuries. I would certainly like to take a peek at Anisimovna's computer. If I could be sure I'd survive the key clicks.

Anyway, it would seem odd to me if a superior intellect fails to develop a superior computer. It just goes together. Like corned beef and cabbage.