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The Two General's Problem

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by tlb   » Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:30 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think any streak drive tactical advantages will come to pass. It may yet prove to have a tactical capability in some scenario, aside from a faster communications loop over long distance. But it won't be an advantage because the GA will have streak drives too.

Herlander Simões didn't know much about the spider driver, other than the name. But he was a hyperspace physicist working on the streak drive. And we know the secret to cracking the kappa and iota bands was simply brute force, so that's not an insurmountable engineering effort either. Knowing that it's possible (and they'd have known that from Firebrand too) is 90% of the work.

It seems reasonable to expect that Galton even has assembly lines for the streak drive and the 3 second graser, which the GA has now captured along with a lot of documentation about them and things like the biological nanites.
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Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Apr 30, 2025 10:01 pm

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tlb wrote:It seems reasonable to expect that Galton even has assembly lines for the streak drive and the 3 second graser, which the GA has now captured along with a lot of documentation about them and things like the biological nanites.


Simões arrived on Manticore two years ago, from the end of TEiF.
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Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by tlb   » Wed Apr 30, 2025 10:48 pm

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tlb wrote:It seems reasonable to expect that Galton even has assembly lines for the streak drive and the 3 second graser, which the GA has now captured along with a lot of documentation about them and things like the biological nanites.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Simões arrived on Manticore two years ago, from the end of TEiF.
And?

I agree that they could have created a streak drive of their own based on what he knows. Also, since he was a crucial member of the team that was working to improve the streak drive, it might even be better. But it cannot hurt to have additional documentation and a working assembly line; particularly since he might be more theoretical than practical.
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Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu May 01, 2025 11:42 am

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tlb wrote:I agree that they could have created a streak drive of their own based on what he knows. Also, since he was a crucial member of the team that was working to improve the streak drive, it might even be better. But it cannot hurt to have additional documentation and a working assembly line; particularly since he might be more theoretical than practical.


Oh, sorry, I missed the implication. Yes, indeed, with captured technology from Galton it will become even easier. In fact, if we expect that all of the streak drive engineering was at Galton, now the GA is on par with everything the MAlign has on it.
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Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by penny   » Thu May 29, 2025 9:03 am

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Also I might add that we do not know the astrography of the Darius System. It could be that the conditions of the grav waves near the Darius System are ripe for lending obvious tactical and strategic advantages to the streak drive and the spider drive. Just because we cannot see tactical uses in the known HV does not mean tactical uses does not exist in ‘Oz’ (Darius) where the Mad Wizard can work his magic. Tactical advantages might become evident in the Darius System. Tack on the fact that we do not know what advantages the Spider Drive itself might already possess over Impellers in specific conditions that might exist in hyperspace. The Darius System might make the Roaring Deeps seem like a kiddie pool. As well as other heretofore abnormal previously unpresented phenomena. If a spider ship can enter hyper without sails, or even if a spider ship can bring up its sails almost instantly, and if when outside the hyper limit the Darius System has higher bands that are directly accessible then a tactical advantage is quite clear. “Where did they go?”

IOW, consider the phrase “a solution in search of a problem.” The tactical advantages of the streak drive could be a solution in search of the correct astrography.

Jonathan_S wrote:If RFC had wanted to clearly imply that they each had some tactical advantage it would instead be written as "despite the tactical advantages". That precludes the possibility that one or both have none.

Again, I don’t think the author would have even gone there if there didn’t exist somewhere in Oz where the Mad Wizard might work his magic.

I doubt he’d’ve even brought it up if the possibility didn’t exist and therefore needed broaching. Why even use “tactical” and “streak drive” in the same sentence together if there is no possibility.

The Darius System might just be Oz, although there also could be, as of yet unknown to his readers, areas of the known HV that the Wizard has not shared with his readers which just might include a tactical advantage for the streak drive.

For instance, in Oz the astrography that exists in hyperspace might make the Tellerman Wave and the Roaring Deeps look and feel like kiddie pools.

It also could be that the author acknowledged his own limitations and allowed for a more ingenious Admiral to see what he himself might not. An Admiral who thinks he is invincible is beaten by his own rhetoric.

If your enemy sees what you fail to see, then he will beat you to it then beat you with it. I don’t mean to brag, because what goes on behind closed doors should stay behind closed doors. But I learned that from Honor. Honor talks in her sleep, right along with her many nightmares. Nightmares that frighten Freddy Kruger.


But I digress. Who is to say the MAN will not depart from the norm and fight its battles outside of the hyper limit. Their ships cannot be seen anyway. Imagine Grand Fleet hypering into the Darius System and preparing to target the System with MDMs as it did before. Not knowing there are LDs and other ordnance and infrastructure positioned behind it.

Engagements usually do not occur outside the hyper limit of a star. Darius Prime is it?, is said to be a beautiful planet and a beautiful system. I think it was Thinksmarkedly who pointed out that there mightn’t be military emplacements cluttering up what is described as such a beautiful planet. I pointed out that stealthy ships, weapons, weapons emplacements, platforms and infrastructure would not clutter up a serene environment.

“The MBS’s new space stations that are under construction are built with powerful self-defense capability.” Says textev. Dunno what that means, but what’s good for the RMN is good for the MAN.

Also, I wonder if an entire space station can enter hyperspace. One with streak drive abilities may be able to enter a band inaccessible to impellers when the enemy arrives. And that space station can be located outside the limit since it cannot be seen.

The astrography in Darius space might contain a region of hyperspace that is dominated solely by higher bands.

A spider drive’s tactical advantage waiting for an amenable tactical situation? The Darius System just might provide that. Indeed, the Darius System just might’ve been the inspiration for the Alignments unprecedented tech. The brainstorm and the tech may be a product of the System. Necessity is the Mother of Invention. If the system itself contains regions of n-space that would put a ship entering hyper directly into contact with higher bands.

penny wrote: As I indicated, I think it would be more prudent, and accurate, to say that that passage infers instead of implies.

tlb wrote: In written text, the author implies and the reader infers.


Except that I was attributing super human qualities to the passage. Because, as one of your own posts asserts, the author is leaving himself some wiggle room. But I think it goes farther than that. The author does not want to serve this wine before its time. He falls short of implying it. But the passage contains an Omen. A sign. It becomes human, inferring it for him. The passage becomes the reader.

I keep telling the forum that language is not, and was not, meant to be a static entity. Grammar and rules are a base in which to set up operations for discussion and agreement.

”Language learns itself”. As a professor of philosophy once wrote in her book.

If indeed there was one language in the beginning of mankind. And if indeed that language was so efficient it allowed man to build a tower to heaven. If indeed that language was so powerful that it caused God – if indeed there is a God – to scatter that only spoken, unified language because it was too powerful for mankind's own good... then indeed... language learns itself. Trying to reach its former glory.

Language is not meant to be static. One cannot consult a dictionary to read between certain lines.

Methinks at times I am a bit too cerebral.
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Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu May 29, 2025 9:37 am

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penny wrote:But I digress. Who is to say the MAN will not depart from the norm and fight its battles outside of the hyper limit. Their ships cannot be seen anyway. Imagine Grand Fleet hypering into the Darius System and preparing to target the System with MDMs as it did before. Not knowing there are LDs and other ordnance and infrastructure positioned behind it.

They might. But the one time we know spider ships aren't invisible is when they emerge from hyper. (That's why the Sharks has to emerge light weeks from Manticore, and even then that emergence drew the Silver Cephalads to investigate)


That would seem to limit the advantage of using even a streak drive hyper generator tactically -- every time a ship hypers back in it gives away its position.



That doesn't mean they won't fight out there. It doesn't even mean they won't attempt to hyper in on enemies out there. It just adds complications and risk to doing so.
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Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by tlb   » Thu May 29, 2025 10:15 am

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penny wrote:Also, I wonder if an entire space station can enter hyperspace. One with streak drive abilities may be able to enter a band inaccessible to impellers when the enemy arrives. And that space station can be located outside the limit since it cannot be seen.

The astrography in Darius space might contain a region of hyperspace that is dominated solely by higher bands.

In what way can hyperspace be "dominated solely by higher bands"? The lower bands are always there and have to be traversed to get to the higher bands.

We have discussed elsewhere the possibility of a hyperspace capable fort. A space station would be the same, expect with any problems magnified by its size. Do you think Hephaestus could not be seen? One constant in the Honorverse seems to be that the bigger something is, the less mobile it is. An LD is mobile, but it is not fast, a hyperspace station would be even less so.

PS: Saying that "Language learns itself", is the sort of thing that gives philosophy a bad name. Language changes because people change the way they use it, the active agents are people and those changes are not always for the better. It is useful to have two words that denote different actions or things, it is less useful to change so the words mean the same. It is not cerebral to devolve the language into Newspeak.

Dictionaries may not completely contain a language, but they do strive to contain the commonly accepted part of one. If that was not possible, then it would not be clear what a language even was.
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Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by penny   » Thu May 29, 2025 2:17 pm

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tlb wrote:
penny wrote:Also, I wonder if an entire space station can enter hyperspace. One with streak drive abilities may be able to enter a band inaccessible to impellers when the enemy arrives. And that space station can be located outside the limit since it cannot be seen.

The astrography in Darius space might contain a region of hyperspace that is dominated solely by higher bands.

In what way can hyperspace be "dominated solely by higher bands"? The lower bands are always there and have to be traversed to get to the higher bands.

We have discussed elsewhere the possibility of a hyperspace capable fort. A space station would be the same, expect with any problems magnified by its size. Do you think Hephaestus could not be seen? One constant in the Honorverse seems to be that the bigger something is, the less mobile it is. An LD is mobile, but it is not fast, a hyperspace station would be even less so.

PS: Saying that "Language learns itself", is the sort of thing that gives philosophy a bad name. Language changes because people change the way they use it, the active agents are people and those changes are not always for the better. It is useful to have two words that denote different actions or things, it is less useful to change so the words mean the same. It is not cerebral to devolve the language into Newspeak.

Dictionaries may not completely contain a language, but they do strive to contain the commonly accepted part of one. If that was not possible, then it would not be clear what a language even was.

I wasn't aware that philosophy had a bad name. I know there are people who lack the transcendental thinking that is required, thus they do not understand it. I am not one of those limited logic thinkers. Perhaps we have access to the Philosopher's Stone. I don't intend to belabor this point with you. I am too busy these days.

At any rate, we might find out that the astrography of Darius was the Mother of Invention.
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Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by penny   » Thu May 29, 2025 2:36 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:But I digress. Who is to say the MAN will not depart from the norm and fight its battles outside of the hyper limit. Their ships cannot be seen anyway. Imagine Grand Fleet hypering into the Darius System and preparing to target the System with MDMs as it did before. Not knowing there are LDs and other ordnance and infrastructure positioned behind it.

They might. But the one time we know spider ships aren't invisible is when they emerge from hyper. (That's why the Sharks has to emerge light weeks from Manticore, and even then that emergence drew the Silver Cephalads to investigate)


That would seem to limit the advantage of using even a streak drive hyper generator tactically -- every time a ship hypers back in it gives away its position.



That doesn't mean they won't fight out there. It doesn't even mean they won't attempt to hyper in on enemies out there. It just adds complications and risk to doing so.

I think you are understimating the value of the tactic. If forts and LDs and space stations are emplaced outside the limit then they are in position to fire upon anything that hypers in. And if the spider drive enables them to get into hyper quicker, then evading return fire and living to fight another day would be the worthwhile tactic.

In the heat of battle, it does not matter if the enemy can see you reemerge from hyper. If the enemy is in your own Home System then the enemy is smart enough to know that you are there. What is important is that when you return, far away from the enemy fleet. They still cannot find you. Knowing you have returned and knowing you are out there ain't helping one bit after hypering into ones system and the battle has begun. The spiders do not have a need to hide their presence in the system as they do when opening up a can of oysters. "You can't find me. You can't shoot at me. And you can't outrun me. (If you don't know where I am.)"

Sound familiar?
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Re: The Two General's Problem
Post by tlb   » Thu May 29, 2025 3:15 pm

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penny wrote:I wasn't aware that philosophy had a bad name. I know there are people who lack the transcendental thinking that is required, thus they do not understand it. I am not one of those limited logic thinkers. Perhaps we have access to the Philosopher's Stone.
The Philosopher's Stone, that mystical substance that Alchemists believed could lead into gold and grant immortal life, is something you think philosophers were seeking?

If you will do a simple internet search, then you will find that even professors of philosophy are concerned about certain subjects that can give philosophy a bad name. An example in the field of self-knowledge is how do we know that we "know" that we are wearing socks (sort of the modern equivalent of the number of angels that can dance on a pinhead).

But perhaps the professors are not cerebral enough and lack the transcendental thinking that is required.
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