The Alamo Contingency has already failed

About the argument that an LD is not going to be able to get inside a concentric shell of RDs and LACs. Perhaps. Maybe.

Unless the LD has already infiltrated enemy lines before the shooting starts. OOPS!

That is what a sub does. It slots into place before the shooting starts. The shooting starts because the sub starts it. Subs historically got inside a fleet's screening elements and fleet formation then started shooting.

Kzt's "flaming datum" is what kicks off the party. The LDs will already be behind enemy lines.

As soon as DW had ~250 ton Drones able to fly under wedge in near ~perfect stealth from an entire fleet, any rational discussion of "sensors" or Stealth, went out the window. Complete Plot armor at this point.

As for Penny... "heat not a problem>>>"

Wedge sumps suck up the excess heat and inertia of the ships in question making DW's universe able to function. Spiders have ZERO wedge sumps bud. I'll let you figure out how much excess heat has to be radiated on a ~4Mton(shark), let alone a 10Mton LD ship with an acceleration capability of 250G @ even 99.9% efficiency... Lets just say its surface temperature will be Hotter than a sun making ANYONE able to see it from Light Years away. Let alone a Light second or a light minute.

It will be brighter than the local sun!!! Even 1970's star trackers would EASILY see it let alone Honorverse equivalents in the future.

This whole "discussion" is an absurd joke regardless of how one actually uses different types of sensors.

penny wrote:About the argument that an LD is not going to be able to get inside a concentric shell of RDs and LACs. Perhaps.

The argument is not whether the LD can get within a concentric shell of RDs and LACs; instead it is that once inside the expanding shell, it will be visible because of its heat signature. Note that this has nothing to do with the quality of its stealth. Every ship has reactors that produce enormous amounts of heat, much of which becomes wasted. Relax says that wedge ships can use that to shed the excess, but a spider drive must use a radiator; as the text said the only way for that to be hidden is to radiate on a side away from observers. When inside a shell there is no way to do that.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:About the argument that an LD is not going to be able to get inside a concentric shell of RDs and LACs. Perhaps.

The argument is not whether the LD can get within a concentric shell of RDs and LACs; instead it is that once inside the expanding shell, it will be visible because of its heat signature. Note that this has nothing to do with the quality of its stealth. Every ship has reactors that produce enormous amounts of heat, much of which becomes wasted. Relax says that wedge ships can use that to shed the excess, but a spider drive must use a radiator; as the text said the only way for that to be hidden is to radiate on a side away from observers. When inside a shell there is no way to do that.

Barking up the wrong tree. See your friendly neighborhood author. I suspended disbelief about radiated heat long before the MA arrived on the scene.

Newsflash! There is NO SUCH THING as a side away from observers if heat is a problem. Unless you think an LD can project an image that covers the entire space that is heated around it. An area that will be MUCH larger than itself. Impossible!

I did not mean that waste heat is not a problem that didn't have to be dealt with. I am simply saying that it won't affect detection. Or DW wouldn't have created the things. And the GA certainly wouldn't need to develop a spider drive detector.

But I am always fair and impartial when circumstances dictate it. So, DW could be intentionally giving the LD a flaw just like the sub on Hunt for Red October. I don't think it will be heat.

If heat is going to be a problem for an LD, it is dead before it is launched. Anyone game for a friendly wager?

The text says waste heat is a problem IF sensors get EXTREMELY close. And yes, all ships have reactors. And GA reactors need a significant amount of time to start. Are you certain the LD's reactors will be similarly limited? Are you certain the LDs won't be able to operate for several hours on special supercapacitors that don't create enormous amounts of waste heat? Send me the memo. I didn't get it.

Better yet, send me the memo that says the LDs won't get an allotment of handwavium. Is handwavium only distributed in the Haven sector. Please!

Heat will not be the LDs Achilles heel. sigh

.

Relax wrote:As soon as DW had ~250 ton Drones able to fly under wedge in near ~perfect stealth from an entire fleet, any rational discussion of "sensors" or Stealth, went out the window. Complete Plot armor at this point.

As for Penny... "heat not a problem>>>"

Wedge sumps suck up the excess heat and inertia of the ships in question making DW's universe able to function. Spiders have ZERO wedge sumps bud. I'll let you figure out how much excess heat has to be radiated on a ~4Mton(shark), let alone a 10Mton LD ship with an acceleration capability of 250G @ even 99.9% efficiency... Lets just say its surface temperature will be Hotter than a sun making ANYONE able to see it from Light Years away. Let alone a Light second or a light minute.

It will be brighter than the local sun!!! Even 1970's star trackers would EASILY see it let alone Honorverse equivalents in the future.

This whole "discussion" is an absurd joke regardless of how one actually uses different types of sensors.

Ah! I get it now! Plot armor! It is plot armor that allows the GA ships to function and not handwavium? Well that makes sense actually, because that would leave an excess of handwavium to be used for the LDs. Cool.

Newsflash for you. The LDs are also a part of DWs universe. And he says the sun cannot be seen on the far side of an LD.

But wait, there's more. Without a wedge, the LD can reduce the heat signature of the sun to a footprint the fraction of the size of the LD itself using a... radiator. Guess what the "radiator" is using for coolant? Handwavium!

penny wrote:Barking up the wrong tree. See your friendly neighborhood author. I suspended disbelief about radiated heat long before the MA arrived on the scene.

Newsflash! There is NO SUCH THING as a side away from observers if heat is a problem. Unless you think an LD can project an image that covers the entire space that is heated around it. An area that will be MUCH larger than itself. Impossible!

I did not mean that waste heat is not a problem that didn't have to be dealt with. I am simply saying that it won't affect detection. Or DW wouldn't have created the things. And the GA certainly wouldn't need to develop a spider drive detector.

But I am always fair and impartial when circumstances dictate it. So, DW could be intentionally giving the LD a flaw just like the sub on Hunt for Red October. I don't think it will be heat.

If heat is going to be a problem for an LD, it is dead before it is launched. Anyone game for a friendly wager?

The text says waste heat is a problem IF sensors get EXTREMELY close. And yes, all ships have reactors. And GA reactors need a significant amount of time to start. Are you certain the LD's reactors will be similarly limited? Are you certain the LDs won't be able to operate for several hours on special supercapacitors that don't create enormous amounts of waste heat?

Since heat is electromagnetic energy when radiated, then it can be radiated directionally. So there can be a side away from the observer, or did you not read the text carefully? What are you writing about when you state "Unless you think an LD can project an image that covers the entire space that is heated around it. An area that will be MUCH larger than itself"? Image projection (as I try to understand you) is part of the stealth operation with smart paint. The smart paint (if I remember correctly) is also what is radiating heat on the back side.

I believe that the part about needing to be really close referred to the stealth and not the heat.

I am quite ready to believe that heat was to be the flaw; but notice that it is only a flaw if the spider ship is within a sphere of observers. If outside then there is a good direction to radiate that heat.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Barking up the wrong tree. See your friendly neighborhood author. I suspended disbelief about radiated heat long before the MA arrived on the scene.

Newsflash! There is NO SUCH THING as a side away from observers if heat is a problem. Unless you think an LD can project an image that covers the entire space that is heated around it. An area that will be MUCH larger than itself. Impossible!

I did not mean that waste heat is not a problem that didn't have to be dealt with. I am simply saying that it won't affect detection. Or DW wouldn't have created the things. And the GA certainly wouldn't need to develop a spider drive detector.

But I am always fair and impartial when circumstances dictate it. So, DW could be intentionally giving the LD a flaw just like the sub on Hunt for Red October. I don't think it will be heat.

If heat is going to be a problem for an LD, it is dead before it is launched. Anyone game for a friendly wager?

The text says waste heat is a problem IF sensors get EXTREMELY close. And yes, all ships have reactors. And GA reactors need a significant amount of time to start. Are you certain the LD's reactors will be similarly limited? Are you certain the LDs won't be able to operate for several hours on special supercapacitors that don't create enormous amounts of waste heat?

Since heat is electromagnetic energy when radiated, then it can be radiated directionally. So there can be a side away from the observer, or did you not read the text carefully? What are you writing about when you state "Unless you think an LD can project an image that covers the entire space that is heated around it. An area that will be MUCH larger than itself"? Image projection (as I try to understand you) is part of the stealth operation with smart paint. The smart paint (if I remember correctly) is also what is radiating heat on the back side.

I believe that the part about needing to be really close referred to the stealth and not the heat.

I am quite ready to believe that heat was to be the flaw; but notice that it is only a flaw if the spider ship is within a sphere of observers. If outside then there is a good direction to radiate that heat.

OIC.

Just place an exhaust pipe in the rear of the LD and that will solve the problem. LOL

At least make the muffler a Mopar part.

In a universe where 6 MT SDs can continually accelerate at 500g (versus ours where a 7 kt moon rocket gets up to 7g for a matter of minutes) you have to just assume that physics are different.

penny wrote:

Relax wrote:
As for Penny... "heat not a problem>>>"

ships to function and not handwavium? Well that makes sense actually, because

Newsflash for you. The LDs are also a part of DWs universe..... Handwavium!

If your argument is handwavium, then you have no argument other than discussing the number of angels dancing on a needle point.

Books already solve your lack of argument. Spider ships are not detected via IR detection due to cooling their surfaces + other "stealth" coatings etc. They direct said waste heat away... Which means their waste heat will be the BRIGHTEST object in the sky as the exit temperature must be several million degrees(don't ask how an exhaust "waste" Temperature is supposedly hotter than the core of the sun or a white dwarf... uh Handwavium) It will be brighter than their local Star by many orders of magnitude. ANYTHING will be able to see them from the angle of their exhaust port.

This is how LD's will be detected. IR signatures at long ranges. Though at millions of degrees, it will not be IR, it will be Xrays, Ultra Violet and yes some IR as well.

The LDs are dead in the water before they are launched if you are correct. No spider drive detector needed. Simply ask any kid standing on Manticore to identify the heat source with Manticore's latest iteration of iPhones. Those cameras are amazing. That is your spider drive detector.