Sonja Hemphill

Shannon_Foraker wrote:Does anyone else besides cthia have any good ideas for the Duo's backstory prior to joining the Navy (or offscreen moments of them in the Navy)?

Sonja's background is expanded upon in House of Steel. She was part of Project Gram, under Captain (later Admiral) Adcock, and worked closely with then Prince Roger Winton. I'm guessing she was part of Gram for the entire duration of that secret programme, though that's not explicit in the text. There's a scene when a confrontation of hers with Hamish Alexander (who was not yet Earl White Haven) is recounted, which gives also some background on her personality.

She's also much older than Shannon. Sonja was Lieutenant Commander in 1855; Shannon was only a Lieutenant in 1907.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Shannon_Foraker wrote:Does anyone else besides cthia have any good ideas for the Duo's backstory prior to joining the Navy (or offscreen moments of them in the Navy)?

Sonja's background is expanded upon in House of Steel. She was part of Project Gram, under Captain (later Admiral) Adcock, and worked closely with then Prince Roger Winton. I'm guessing she was part of Gram for the entire duration of that secret programme, though that's not explicit in the text. There's a scene when a confrontation of hers with Hamish Alexander (who was not yet Earl White Haven) is recounted, which gives also some background on her personality.

She's also much older than Shannon. Sonja was Lieutenant Commander in 1855; Shannon was only a Lieutenant in 1907.

I know her friendship with Shannon was intergenerational. I haven't read House of Steel, but know I need to. I'd love to see House of Lies someday!

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Shannon_Foraker wrote:Does anyone else besides cthia have any good ideas for the Duo's backstory prior to joining the Navy (or offscreen moments of them in the Navy)?

Sonja's background is expanded upon in House of Steel. She was part of Project Gram, under Captain (later Admiral) Adcock, and worked closely with then Prince Roger Winton. I'm guessing she was part of Gram for the entire duration of that secret programme, though that's not explicit in the text. There's a scene when a confrontation of hers with Hamish Alexander (who was not yet Earl White Haven) is recounted, which gives also some background on her personality.

She's also much older than Shannon. Sonja was Lieutenant Commander in 1855; Shannon was only a Lieutenant in 1907.

Shannon_Foraker wrote:I know her friendship with Shannon was intergenerational. I haven't read House of Steel, but know I need to. I'd love to see House of Lies someday!

I always imagined it was more of a "I see myself in you" kind of thing for Sonja. Shannon was exactly what Sonja used to be. A young upstart that came in and upset the status quo.

On that note, I always wondered if Sonja was singlehandedly responsible for creating the jeune ecole? Or did the jeune ecole exist before Sonja?

I can't remember the specific details, but textev commented on the ongoing score being kept between the two schools of thought's success in the wargames. Were the jeune ecoles ahead?

Can you imagine the point in the wargames which made young Shannon stand out? She must have picked the OpForce's tactics apart. I imagine her first brutal handling of the OpForce at tactical put her in very high demand.

Since we know Shannon was labeled as a bit antisocial, if it is actually true, perhaps she hacked her own assignments. Caslet, then Tourville?

Why not, we know that Harkness's hacks made sure he and Tremaine stayed together.

cthia wrote:On that note, I always wondered if Sonja was singlehandedly responsible for creating the jeune ecole? Or did the jeune ecole exist before Sonja?

I can't remember the specific details, but textev commented on the ongoing score being kept between the two schools of thought's success in the wargames. Were the jeune ecoles ahead?

It sounds like the jeune école existed for some time. How long, we don't know for sure. I don't think it's explicit anywhere, so this is just my own interpretation: I think it came into being only once the RMN started modernising, under King Roger. There wasn't a point in talking about new tactics and new techniques when there wasn't anything new in terms of weapons and construction. And there hadn't been in 3 T-centuries. The advent of the laserhead only happened part-way through Project Gram's existence.

Oh, there must have been some fringe elements who always advocated for new things. The lieutenant who had envisaged a two-stage missile when Travis Long was going through basic training is one example: as far back as the 1530s, there would have been people thinking of new ways. But they would have been a definite minority and mostly ignored because their ideas couldn't be put into practice.

Travis wouldn't consider himself anywhere near revolutionary. He was a by-the-book guy who just happened to have bursts of inspiration and thought outside the box when needed.

We don't know what in Sonja attracted Prince Roger and Captain Adcock to have them recruit her into Project Gram. I expect she'd already demonstrated the capacity for thinking outside the box and -- like Shannon later but unlike Travis -- use it at will, not just under pressure. Her way-above-average intelligence would have been a known fact. And her personality would have guided her to shore assignments with like-minded people she wouldn't easily offend.

So I expect the jeune école wasn't relevant until the mid-1870s or so, if it existed at all. But once the laserhead became known and some hints of progress from Project Gram made their way to the RMN personnel, it did take root.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:On that note, I always wondered if Sonja was singlehandedly responsible for creating the jeune ecole? Or did the jeune ecole exist before Sonja?

I can't remember the specific details, but textev commented on the ongoing score being kept between the two schools of thought's success in the wargames. Were the jeune ecoles ahead?

It sounds like the jeune école existed for some time. How long, we don't know for sure. I don't think it's explicit anywhere, so this is just my own interpretation: I think it came into being only once the RMN started modernising, under King Roger. There wasn't a point in talking about new tactics and new techniques when there wasn't anything new in terms of weapons and construction. And there hadn't been in 3 T-centuries. The advent of the laserhead only happened part-way through Project Gram's existence.

Oh, there must have been some fringe elements who always advocated for new things. The lieutenant who had envisaged a two-stage missile when Travis Long was going through basic training is one example: as far back as the 1530s, there would have been people thinking of new ways. But they would have been a definite minority and mostly ignored because their ideas couldn't be put into practice.

Travis wouldn't consider himself anywhere near revolutionary. He was a by-the-book guy who just happened to have bursts of inspiration and thought outside the box when needed.

We don't know what in Sonja attracted Prince Roger and Captain Adcock to have them recruit her into Project Gram. I expect she'd already demonstrated the capacity for thinking outside the box and -- like Shannon later but unlike Travis -- use it at will, not just under pressure. Her way-above-average intelligence would have been a known fact. And her personality would have guided her to shore assignments with like-minded people she wouldn't easily offend.

So I expect the jeune école wasn't relevant until the mid-1870s or so, if it existed at all. But once the laserhead became known and some hints of progress from Project Gram made their way to the RMN personnel, it did take root.

I like your take on things!

Except that I really don't get the vibe that the jeune ecole existed before Sonja. Either that or it was a poor imitation of what it is now.

But it is hard to think the material based school of thought existed for too long before Sonja, if at all. And do note that jeune ecole is French which translates into "new school," or "young school."

I got the impression that it was a completely new school of thought that was completely divergent from traditionalist thinking.

The jeune ecole represents the new thinking that is found in the young blood vs the stick-in-the-mud hard-to-teach-new tricks, old farts. Like White Haven.

On that note, that is the one point in which my young niece argued with the college students about. She didn't think Hamish should be rated so highly, because he had to be browbeat into reality about pod warfare by Honor, and Sonja, and the entire jeune ecole. Hamish didn't impress my niece as an officer that Apollo pods should be wasted on.

"They're in short supply Hamish."

cthia wrote:Except that I really don't get the vibe that the jeune ecole existed before Sonja. Either that or it was a poor imitation of what it is now.

I think that there had always been people who thought of new ways. Whether they called themselves "jeune école" or whether the phrase came into being with Sonja, we can't tell.

But I agree that whatever existed prior to the 1870s (if anything) wasn't far removed from "bunch of crackpots." Sonja may not have founded the école, but she would have given it legitimacy. Similarly, she might not have been its uncontested leader: it's possible she knew the better part of discretion, given she was a member of Project Gram, and avoided undue attention from Peep spies.

I got the impression that it was a completely new school of thought that was completely divergent from traditionalist thinking.

The jeune ecole represents the new thinking that is found in the young blood vs the stick-in-the-mud hard-to-teach-new tricks, old farts. Like White Haven.

Sure, but you can always have that. You can have one new one now advocating a divergence from long-range missile battle, for example. So my point is that there being a group of officers who thought of new ways could have been always present, long before Sonja and the laserhead.

"Young blood" is not necessary, though. Sonja and Hamish are of very similar age. And Honor is younger than both and was very much against the jeune école, until her stint at the WDB.

On that note, that is the one point in which my young niece argued with the college students about. She didn't think Hamish should be rated so highly, because he had to be browbeat into reality about pod warfare by Honor, and Sonja, and the entire jeune ecole. Hamish didn't impress my niece as an officer that Apollo pods should be wasted on.

"They're in short supply Hamish."

Hamish wasn't shooting Apollo missiles. He was First Lord at that time. He did command Operation Buttercup, though.

He was indeed against jeune école, until Honor (as you said) browbeat the idea into him -- at the same time they fell for each other. But he was not stupid and he did learn and adapt. That's a plus in his column.

House of Steel, November 1914 PD wrote:"Agreed. Agreed." White Haven rubbed his chin some more. The final—or currently "final"; the WDB was promising even better ones soon—version of the long-range missiles could reach 96,000 gravities of acceleration. [...]

Thank you, Vice Admiral Adcock, he thought quietly, thinking about those numbers. And you, too, I suppose, Sonja. Thank you very, very much.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It sounds like the jeune école existed for some time. How long, we don't know for sure. I don't think it's explicit anywhere, so this is just my own interpretation: I think it came into being only once the RMN started modernising, under King Roger. There wasn't a point in talking about new tactics and new techniques when there wasn't anything new in terms of weapons and construction. And there hadn't been in 3 T-centuries. The advent of the laserhead only happened part-way through Project Gram's existence.

Oh, there must have been some fringe elements who always advocated for new things. The lieutenant who had envisaged a two-stage missile when Travis Long was going through basic training is one example: as far back as the 1530s, there would have been people thinking of new ways. But they would have been a definite minority and mostly ignored because their ideas couldn't be put into practice.

Travis wouldn't consider himself anywhere near revolutionary. He was a by-the-book guy who just happened to have bursts of inspiration and thought outside the box when needed.

We don't know what in Sonja attracted Prince Roger and Captain Adcock to have them recruit her into Project Gram. I expect she'd already demonstrated the capacity for thinking outside the box and -- like Shannon later but unlike Travis -- use it at will, not just under pressure. Her way-above-average intelligence would have been a known fact. And her personality would have guided her to shore assignments with like-minded people she wouldn't easily offend.

So I expect the jeune école wasn't relevant until the mid-1870s or so, if it existed at all. But once the laserhead became known and some hints of progress from Project Gram made their way to the RMN personnel, it did take root.

I think you might be overstating the lack of new weapons and technology over the proceeding 3 centuries. From IIF we know that impeller missiles (first prototypes 1246 PD followed "soon" by "smaller more practical drives"), sidewalls (1260s? PD "roughly a decade after [practical?] impeller missiles], sidewall penetrators (1298 PD) are all well beyond 3 centuries old.

But now "The stage was now set for an arms development race that has continued for the last seven hundred years. Military spacecraft designers devised increasingly effective ways to deceive, destroy, or block the attacking missiles. Weapon designers invented increasingly effective seekers, sidewall penetrators, and warheads. The evolutionary development over the period between about 1300 and 1800 was sometimes punctuated by bursts of revolutionary activity that introduced competing technologies on both sides of the offensive/defensive divide." [IFF]

Next on mentioned is still more than 3 centuries old; the inertial compensators (1412 PD)

From HoS we know Manticore's first Dreadnoughts (design licensed from the League) were commissioned in 1632 PD. -- At some unspecified point in the ensuing century compensator technology improved sufficient to permit the construction of Superdreadnoughts; with Manticore commissioning her first in 1742 PD.

Back to IFF:
Pure fusion (grav pinch) warhead (1650s PD) -- allowing warhead's of unheard of yields to be fitted into missile bodies (allowing them to overload and burn out sidewalls).

Altering fusion fuels to gain a bit of standoff range and tune the resulting radiation (1669 PD)

Impeller drive counter missile (1701 PD)

Point defense laser weapons (1780s PD)

nuclear gravitically directed energy weapon (NGDEW) (1806 PD) -- improved direction shaping and increased standoff range for sidewall burning warheads.

RMN achieves 8-10,000 km warhead standoff range for sidewall burning (1826 PD)

First trial laserhead warhead (1833 PD)

First complete laser-head-armed impeller-drive anti-ship missile system (1866 PD)

Project Gram might technically have predated that last, but if so only barely. The Project was initialed by King Rodger III and he wasn't crowned until 1857 PD.

And Manticore had been working to some degree on laserheads since the 1930s PD; basically contemporaneously with Astral's first (failed) SLN live fire trials in 1933 PD and came out with their fist one (the Mk 19 capital ship missile) in just 1870 PD. (And just 9 years later started designing the Mk13 CA/BC weight missile which managed to scale the warhead down to fit while also shoehorning in a multi-mode boom/burn/lase capability)


And of course glossed over in that list is a steady back and forth of advances in ECM, jammers, decoys, sidewalls, sidewall penetrators, warheads, point defense autocannon, improved laser clusters, steady upward creep in maximum compensator tonnage, etc. etc., each temporarily tilting the advantage towards attack or back to defense. All of that is enough innovation within the stagnant tactical "plateau" that you probable had more than just the fringe feeling that some new design, fully buying into the latest advance, might shake things up and provide a major advantage.

So if not a full blown jeune école movement during that whole period there was probably always at least the nucleus of such a movement within the RMN and it would have waxed and waned in size and influence through the many decades. (Though when such a group fist actually adopted the name "jeune ecole", from the French 19th century CE strategic naval concept, for themselves is unknown)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Hamish [snip] was indeed against jeune école, until Honor (as you said) browbeat the idea into him -- at the same time they fell for each other. But he was not stupid and he did learn and adapt. That's a plus in his column.

And his initial resistance probably stemmed in part from his knowledge of naval history and the way the original 19th century jeune école -- which sought to counter heavily armed, and very expensive, battleships through the use of the new automotive (self-propelled) torpedo mounted to numerous small fast (cheap) ships -- rapidly failed due to changes in tactics, the development of the rapid fire breach-loading gun, and then the design of new escort ships (mounting said rapid fire guns) to counter the swarms of torpedo boats.

The destroyer actually originated as a torpedo boat destroyer -- a slightly larger, but still quite fast, vessel armed with those new rapid fire guns designed to intercept and drive off or destroy torpedo boats before they could reach torpedo range of the battle line. It was only later that destroyers gained torpedoes of their own and an role in attacking the enemy battle line with them. And later still before they gained antisubmarine and antiair weapons to help protect the battle line against those new threats.

And that's only one example of a new paradigm shift or war winning ship/weapon being quite quickly countered. So he was suspicious (and by the end overly so) of their promised revolution and wanted to make sure the existing highly capable navy wasn't sacrificed for something new that might be subject to an easy counter.
(And the jeune école school within the RMN seeming willing to accept more attritional warfare with swarms of highly venerable old-style LACs wouldn't have endeared them to him either)

Jonathan_S wrote:I think you might be overstating the lack of new weapons and technology over the proceeding 3 centuries. From IIF we know that impeller missiles (first prototypes 1246 PD followed "soon" by "smaller more practical drives"), sidewalls (1260s? PD "roughly a decade after [practical?] impeller missiles], sidewall penetrators (1298 PD) are all well beyond 3 centuries old.

But now "The stage was now set for an arms development race that has continued for the last seven hundred years. Military spacecraft designers devised increasingly effective ways to deceive, destroy, or block the attacking missiles. Weapon designers invented increasingly effective seekers, sidewall penetrators, and warheads. The evolutionary development over the period between about 1300 and 1800 was sometimes punctuated by bursts of revolutionary activity that introduced competing technologies on both sides of the offensive/defensive divide." [IFF]

Next on mentioned is still more than 3 centuries old; the inertial compensators (1412 PD)

You can't use examples of technology advancement over 3 centuries old to prove that there was significant development in the last 3 centuries.

I'm not saying there was no development at all. I'm saying there wasn't much significant development, meaning the strategies and tactics of battle remained unchanged. There was nothing to upset the cart -- or at least nothing that wasn't countered and thus restored the status quo. Besides, with few to no large-scale wars, there was nobody actually trying any new ideas.

We know for a fact in this period the SLN decayed, going from unquestioned superior force to lazy layabout. They actively avoided and even suppressed any development that would nullify their advantages, precisely because they wanted the existing strategies to remain successful.

From your list before the laserhead:

Pure fusion (grav pinch) warhead (1650s PD) -- allowing warhead's of unheard of yields to be fitted into missile bodies (allowing them to overload and burn out sidewalls).

Altering fusion fuels to gain a bit of standoff range and tune the resulting radiation (1669 PD)

Impeller drive counter missile (1701 PD)

Point defense laser weapons (1780s PD)

nuclear gravitically directed energy weapon (NGDEW) (1806 PD) -- improved direction shaping and increased standoff range for sidewall burning warheads.

RMN achieves 8-10,000 km warhead standoff range for sidewall burning (1826 PD)

I don't see anything revolutionary. The increase in stand-off range is countered by the impeller-drive CM, which can reach out and stop shipkillers at longer range too. And the overall battle strategy remains the same: hammer with missiles to degrade sidewalls until you close to energy weapons range.

Anyone at this time that might have suggested using a thousand missiles in a salvo from 8 million km out would be considered a lunatic. The Manticore class SD had 22 missile tubes in the broadside. So even if they stacked a double launch, you'd need 22 ships to fire 968 missiles. The RMN had three of those. Even if you include all the missile tubes of the 11 Ad Astra DNs and of the 16 Thorson-class battleships, they wouldn't add up to enough tubes.

And of course glossed over in that list is a steady back and forth of advances in ECM, jammers, decoys, sidewalls, sidewall penetrators, warheads, point defense autocannon, improved laser clusters, steady upward creep in maximum compensator tonnage, etc. etc., each temporarily tilting the advantage towards attack or back to defense. All of that is enough innovation within the stagnant tactical "plateau" that you probable had more than just the fringe feeling that some new design, fully buying into the latest advance, might shake things up and provide a major advantage.

So if not a full blown jeune école movement during that whole period there was probably always at least the nucleus of such a movement within the RMN and it would have waxed and waned in size and influence through the many decades.

Sure, every time something new came up, someone would stand up and declare that war-fighting would have changed forever and would have been indistinguishable from before. But it didn't, both because none of those were independently sufficient to achieve that and because there was no war to put the theories into practice. So the jeune école prior to the late-19th century improvements would have been dismissed as irrelevant, if it existed.

That would contribute to the other side of the argument, that war-fighting had plateaued and that it was best to stick to tried and true methods. Or that there was nothing new to be learned.