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Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by Shannon_Foraker   » Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:14 pm

Shannon_Foraker
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For myself, I tend to divide the “art of war” into:

Grand Strategy: this is where national objectives are set and where all of the resources — military, diplomatic, economic, industrial, information, etc. — are utilized. The object of grand strategy is to determine what needs to be accomplished and how best to orchestrate all of those resources to the achievement of that/those objective(s). The grand strategists are supposed to be the ones to know what they have to work with, know what needs to be done, decide who to assign to do the doing, and prioritize competing theaters and goals at the highest level.

Theater Strategy: this might also be called “Campaign Strategy.” This is where people assigned by the grand strategists to accomplish specific goals go about accomplishing them. The sorts of issues they need to deal with might be “how do we win the war against the U-boats in the Atlantic” or “how do we deploy strategic air power against Germany” or “how do we invade France” or “how do we take the war to Japan through the Central Pacific.” Planning for those sorts of campaigns/operations takes place at this level, but so does execution and coordination.

Operational: this is the level where individual commanders within a theater or campaign strategy have to accomplish the tasks they are assigned. This would be the point at which a corps commander or a divisional commander or a fleet commander looks at his assigned mission and his resources and whatever support might be available from assets not under his direct command and decides how he’s going to apply them.

Tactical: this is the level where the battles are actually fought. This is the point at which unit movements decide the outcome of the engagement. For an army, this would traditionally involve units below the regimental level; for a fleet commander things are going to be a little different (usually) because individual warships (which would be the equivalent of the “regimental level or below”) don’t usually maneuver as individuals, but rather as components of a task force or a squadron.

This is horribly simplified, of course, and I’m sure people could pick all sorts of holes in it because it contains certain assumptions on my part that are so fundamental I don’t see any need to explicate them more fully.

As far as Honor’s abilities at the tactical, operational, strategic, and grand strategic levels (as I’ve defined them above) are concerned, I think it should be borne in mind that just as we haven’t had a chance to see Caparelli perform at the tactical level, we haven’t seen Honor have a chance to perform equally at all levels. She’s only really been admitted to the strategy/grand strategy level in the last two or three “Honor” books, and I sometimes think when someone’s performed outstandingly at a lower level in my hierarchy, people tend to consider them failures at a higher level unless they perform at least equally or even more spectacularly.


Shannon's worked at Tactics (Honor Among Enemies), Ops (IEH as Tourville's Ops officer), and Theater (Bolthole). I just thought I'd show that, for the others that like her, as a smart Havenite tech nerd. The short story Nightfall (with how close she was, until the bomb went off) and her holding Trevor's Star for so long against Hamish is what really made McQueen seem good in my eyes.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by Shannon_Foraker   » Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:14 pm

Shannon_Foraker
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SharkHunter wrote:Here's my top ten list of.... Tacticians I wouldn't want to fight in ANY space-warfare... in the Honorverse... besides the Admirals Alexander-Harrington and Tourville, those three are WAY too easy. So my total is still ten.

Tactical:
Aivars Terekhov
Shannon Foraker
Jennifer Bellefeuille
Alfredo Yu

...bunch of d--- sneaks, those four...

Top 3 Strategists:
King Roger --> read House of Steel and you realize that BuWeaps and BuShips and even Ghost Rider started improving in the "right" directions because of his impetus

Sonya Hemphill: has managed to dump her "weird enthusiasms" in favor of weapons systems that really work. Keep in mind she takes the "flick the impellers trick" Honor used in the "early in Honor's career" short story "with one stone" and comes up with the idea for the FTL coms on the recon drones, including what is needed to turn it into the pre-eminant part of the Manticoran battle platform.

Herzog Rabenstrange: Granted, we have NO idea from any of the stories what he can do in a space battle, but he's someone you wouldn't want as an adversary and has made every correct politico/military decision for the Andermani empire for YEARS and YEARS. He's why Silesia eventually ceases to be a bone of contention because Manticore trusts him as an ally.

Wow, someone recognizes Shannon for her tactics finally.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by Shannon_Foraker   » Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:14 pm

Shannon_Foraker
Commander

Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:33 pm

SharkHunter wrote:Here's my top ten list of.... Tacticians I wouldn't want to fight in ANY space-warfare... in the Honorverse... besides the Admirals Alexander-Harrington and Tourville, those three are WAY too easy. So my total is still ten.

Tactical:
Aivars Terekhov
Shannon Foraker
Jennifer Bellefeuille
Alfredo Yu

...bunch of d--- sneaks, those four...

Top 3 Strategists:
King Roger --> read House of Steel and you realize that BuWeaps and BuShips and even Ghost Rider started improving in the "right" directions because of his impetus

Sonya Hemphill: has managed to dump her "weird enthusiasms" in favor of weapons systems that really work. Keep in mind she takes the "flick the impellers trick" Honor used in the "early in Honor's career" short story "with one stone" and comes up with the idea for the FTL coms on the recon drones, including what is needed to turn it into the pre-eminant part of the Manticoran battle platform.

Herzog Rabenstrange: Granted, we have NO idea from any of the stories what he can do in a space battle, but he's someone you wouldn't want as an adversary and has made every correct politico/military decision for the Andermani empire for YEARS and YEARS. He's why Silesia eventually ceases to be a bone of contention because Manticore trusts him as an ally.

Wow, someone recognizes Shannon for her tactics finally.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by Shannon_Foraker   » Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:31 pm

Shannon_Foraker
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Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:33 pm

cthia wrote:I realized, from a particular post in the OpForce thread, that I did not post my Top 10 Tactical greats.

Yes, I was stalling. Hey, I have to live with my niece! Besides, she needed time to calm.

Tacticians:

1. Honor Harrington.

1. Esther McQueen.

2. Alfredo Yu. He was Theisman's mentor as much as Courvosier was Honor's. Difference is, Yu was still commanding ships and remained sharp. He essentially becomes Honor's right-hand man, after she learns to trust him. Honor had no qualms about his tactical abilities either, and trusted them. In fact, on a few occasions, Honor and Alfredo played "tactical classroom" with each other.

3. Theisman. Because he was mentored by Yu. Theisman showed a bit of that tactical acumen at Blackbird.

4. Theodosia Kuzak. IMO, inside of Theodosia was a great tactical thinker. It was fitting that she died aboard HMS King Roger III.

5. Lester Tourville.

6. *Shannon Foraker.

7. Hamish Alexander. I'm putting Hamish low on the list because he just didn't show me more of a grasp of tactics than the others that precede him on the list. He always seemed to have half of the RMN's available forces at his disposal, so he won by overwhelming force and superior tech, not by wiles and guiles. (Okay, I stretch the truth a little to make a point. But, thought stands.) He does show a higher propensity for strategy though, which I agree is odd. Although, I do not think that tactical and strategic ability necessarily go hand in hand.

8. Sonja Hemphill. I pondered over where to place Sonja after my split personality told my stable persona that she belongs. I simply have a feeling that she does... indeed belong in the top ten, and the Fleet games support my theory. What bears closer consideration is her style of tactics, witnessed by her peers as being "the head-on confrontational type," IIRC. Hers wasn't necessarily thought of to be the best type of tactics, but I intuit it as a better "feel" for her hardware. After all, that was part of the hallmarks of the second school of tactical thought in which she led called the jeune ecole.

9. Sebastian D'Orville. He was CO of Home Fleet. I don't imagine he was honored to wear that hat if he hadn't displayed tactical, and I would imagine strategic, acumen.

10. Abigail Hearns. I simply must place Abigail on this list as an alternate. She has shown too much tactical ability to be denied. Besides, I must consider her mentor. Do we really want to discount the Salamander's best student?

****** *

*I believe that Shannon Foraker could have become the RHN's counterpart to the Salamander, had she been given command. She had the same tactical eye and sixth-sense and redefined and raised the bar as tac-witch extraordinaire - with inferior hardware. I think she exhibited a tactical edge over many, and if this was a contest of "raw" ability, I'd be inclined to place her in the top two. It almost requires a bit more intestinal fortitude than I possess not to do so anyways.


I think Shannon, as Tourville and Caslet's tac-witch, was the wind beneath their wings. At least the polish on their shoes. She was to Tourville as Spock was to Kirk. Kirk was as good only because Spock was always there to take his bacon out of the pan before it was burnt. So to, a similar comparison of Shannon to both Tourville and Caslet.
Yes!
McQueen, I have placed in a tie with Honor, with perhaps a slight edge to the Salamander because of her uncanny sixth sense. I maintain that had she lived and somehow been present for Operation Beatrice, that Honor could have been killed. McQueen stood so close behind Honor as a tactician that she could smell her choice of shampoo. They both were also superior strategists. I feel that one of the reasons why Hamish could take Trevor's Star was his better hardware. She was also very close to ending the PRH before the bomb blew up, which shows she has good skills as well.
Cthia: Pasted from post #78 in OpForce against OpForce thread.

I wasn't so much as harping on McQueen's presence as seriously altering the absolute outcome, inasmuch as the championing of the Salamander's defeat at the hands of McQueen - which leads to the defeat of Manticore. Because I still maintain that if anyone could have defeated Honor, then she was the she. No, what I mainly propose, is that if McQueen had been present, RFC could have picked that moment to kill off the Salamander.

The way I see it, because of McQueen's superior wiles and cunning, that she would have been in Tourville's position and not have made his mistake. She'd have smelled something amiss and outwaited the Salamander, thus trapping her. Honor would have been killed, had McQueen been present. That being the case, the Manticoran Home system would have fallen. IMHO.

And that's what I'm selling.


Do take note that the RHN almost dominates my top five spots and it is interesting that, IMO, the series interestingly portray the exact same thing. The RHN was more tactically adept, just had inferior ships, tech, and in certain cases of Trevor's Star, position.

I really agree about Shannon.
Yes! Had she been given fleet command I see her as a risk taker, but one who at least most of the time, has an escape plan, like hacking StateSec, and like her mentors (unlike StateSec), knowing honor. The best way to show her command skills now (as she's unlike to be in command of ships unless it relies on Shannon's new tech or if it's a war game) would be

1. A book (or series) covering early Republic, just after PRH through GA, but in Shannon's POV and with scenes at Bolthole
2. Shannon has a flashback to being promoted to Captain or Commodore, and being sent to "deal with" StateSec forces.
3. Shannon chatting with someone and someone bringing it up.
Last edited by Shannon_Foraker on Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:09 pm

cthia
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Shannon could end up in command by Providence or happenstance. Wouldn't that be a fine few chapters to feed on!

If my little Meggie Peterson gets some more screen time, I am going to have to boot someone off my list.

But yes, I agree that Shannon would have given Honor fits had she received command. And they both started out at tactical. Honor was no slouch at tactical herself, but she was no witch.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by Shannon_Foraker   » Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:00 pm

Shannon_Foraker
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cthia wrote:Shannon could end up in command by Providence or happenstance. Wouldn't that be a fine few chapters to feed on!

If my little Meggie Peterson gets some more screen time, I am going to have to boot someone off my list.

But yes, I agree that Shannon would have given Honor fits had she received command. And they both started out at tactical. Honor was no slouch at tactical herself, but she was no witch.

It would be awesome to see Shannon in command. She'd have given Honor a hard time should they have anywhere similar tech levels, with her witchcraft. If she can't beat someone, she can still make a hell of a lot of damage, and Honor would know that.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:41 pm

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Shannon_Foraker wrote:It would be awesome to see Shannon in command. She'd have given Honor a hard time should they have anywhere similar tech levels, with her witchcraft. If she can't beat someone, she can still make a hell of a lot of damage, and Honor would know that.


Shannon is smart enough that she can prepare enough traps for all contingencies. She'll make hay out of straw if necessary.

But she's much better at what she is right now: making those things for those who can figure out even better ways to employ them. So it's not that she wouldn't be good at fleet or ship command (we frankly don't know for sure), it's that she'd be wasted there, especially if she's actually lost.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:16 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Shannon_Foraker wrote:It would be awesome to see Shannon in command. She'd have given Honor a hard time should they have anywhere similar tech levels, with her witchcraft. If she can't beat someone, she can still make a hell of a lot of damage, and Honor would know that.


Shannon is smart enough that she can prepare enough traps for all contingencies. She'll make hay out of straw if necessary.

But she's much better at what she is right now: making those things for those who can figure out even better ways to employ them. So it's not that she wouldn't be good at fleet or ship command (we frankly don't know for sure), it's that she'd be wasted there, especially if she's actually lost.

I agree that her promotion wasn't wasted - is that considered a promotion, perhaps just a lateral move - but I still can't shake the memory as a reader of feeling like I was cheated by the author. On the one hand because she showed so much promise as a commander, I think the author had to give Shannon a lateral move, because she would have been more than a match for Honor. And not wanting to have to deal with the aftermath of two equally matched juggernauts on a collision course, the author had to nudge one of them into a different orbit.

On the other hand as I've stated before, I would still like to know where Shannon came by her skills. It is rather impressive to be able to go from tactical to weapons design. But then again, didn't Sonja perform well in the war games?

At any rate, I would still like to know more about Shannon's background. The truth might be that she was already being wasted at tactical. I know. I know. But still.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:01 am

ThinksMarkedly
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Posts: 4701
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

cthia wrote:I agree that her promotion wasn't wasted - is that considered a promotion, perhaps just a lateral move - but I still can't shake the memory as a reader of feeling like I was cheated by the author. On the one hand because she showed so much promise as a commander, I think the author had to give Shannon a lateral move, because she would have been more than a match for Honor. And not wanting to have to deal with the aftermath of two equally matched juggernauts on a collision course, the author had to nudge one of them into a different orbit.


I don't think Shannon is Honor's equal. Shannon may be very good, much above average, but Honor is a once-in-a-generation tactician. In direct confrontations between the two, Shannon would have usually stalemated, but the law of averages would say that Honor would eventually beat her if given enough battles. Which, as I said, would be a waste.

Shannon did beat her by coming up with Moriarty and the Triple Ripple and some other things, which gave the COs who got those techniques and toys an advantage. But on ship movement, on predicting reactions, and realising what the enemy will do, she's no match for Honor. In fact, that's probably her single biggest failing: as an introvert with poor social skills, she will lack the experience to read people that well. Oh, intelligent people can learn to do that, but as cthia is asking: where is she getting all that training?
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by Shannon_Foraker   » Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:26 am

Shannon_Foraker
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Posts: 197
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cthia wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:It would be awesome to see Shannon in command. She'd have given Honor a hard time should they have anywhere similar tech levels, with her witchcraft. If she can't beat someone, she can still make a hell of a lot of damage, and Honor would know that.

Shannon is smart enough that she can prepare enough traps for all contingencies. She'll make hay out of straw if necessary.

But she's much better at what she is right now: making those things for those who can figure out even better ways to employ them. So it's not that she wouldn't be good at fleet or ship command (we frankly don't know for sure), it's that she'd be wasted there, especially if she's actually lost.

I agree that her promotion wasn't wasted - is that considered a promotion, perhaps just a lateral move - but I still can't shake the memory as a reader of feeling like I was cheated by the author. On the one hand because she showed so much promise as a commander, I think the author had to give Shannon a lateral move, because she would have been more than a match for Honor. And not wanting to have to deal with the aftermath of two equally matched juggernauts on a collision course, the author had to nudge one of them into a different orbit.

On the other hand as I've stated before, I would still like to know where Shannon came by her skills. It is rather impressive to be able to go from tactical to weapons design. But then again, didn't Sonja perform well in the war games?

At any rate, I would still like to know more about Shannon's background. The truth might be that she was already being wasted at tactical. I know. I know. But still.


If she wasn't more than a match for Honor, she'd be enough to at least make Honor's life very hard, which requires the moving of one of them onto a different orbit, so it doesn't result in Honor getting hurt/captured again. I, in my personal headcanon, only see her getting ship command (unlike her very good ops and tac officer record against the Manties) time against StateSec pirates, to keep her from being lost.

However, I was thinking about how the Battle of Manticore would change if Tourville dragged Shannon along to help with his ops plan (as well as command a task group as a Vice Admiral). Shannon would have left a bunch of notes back at Bolthole, before she left, but would it have come out any better for any Havenite forces involved? Do you think there's a good chance she'd survive to get captured, or if borrowed by Chin, to make it back to Haven?

I think that Shannon was able to take her tech skills (which as a tech nerd, could have very well included electronics construction/repair), and her skills of its performance, to do weapons design. She's also very smart, so she can pick stuff up fast.
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