Collin's assassination list

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think you've got it right. The order is probably:

1. A. Detweiler (deceased)
2. B through G Detweiler
3. LRPB
4. RF leadership
5. Bardasano (deceased), Anisimovna, and others like them (inner Onion Alpha lines)

Though the RF leadership probably reported directly to Albrecht (and probably now Benjamin), I figure they're subordinate to the LRPB's decisions.

cthia wrote:Well, I agree with your hierarchy, or it is how I intuited it as well. But the forum came to the conclusion the LRPB calls the shots. It came as a complete surprise and shock to me. Another missed memo. Seems you didn't get it either.

The thread.

By the behavior of the Detweilers, they have no one to answer to. If they do, the LRPB needs to reign in its misfits.

Here is a slice of the discussion from the thread that you highlight:

tlb wrote:The problem with the LRPB trying to but heads with the Detweiler clones is that the "sons" have the power and the name. The board reports to them, and perhaps not even directly - but up through management to the one that is responsible for biological advancement.

cthia wrote:It's not so clear cut in every single case. The board has pretty sweeping powers. They usually have a more top down view of things, and the manager, founder, owner, has a more bottom up view.

The board oversees the decisions taken by management, and alters them according to plans, goals, and the strategic direction and focus of the company. Oftentimes this relationship has inherent conflicts built-in, and it's supposed to. It's set up to be a healthy relationship of checks and balances. (Do recall the management problems and issues of Apple about certain technical aspects of the OS, most notably its looks. Jobs always hated small screen devices less than 10in because of the user's app experience. After Steve Jobs, I had friends -- who once were considering dumping their stock -- suddenly excited about hanging on to it, because Jobs was bullish on investors but amenable to shareholders. Turned out to be a boon that we stayed in.)

Board members are oftentimes part owners themselves with stock options and their own net worth. I assume the Alignment operates on a cash flow basis as every other consortium. Therefore, they have a large input in decisions made about the company. Ultimately, it's rather hard to say without the author's input regarding the overall structure of the "consortium."

Certainly the Detweiler name is vastly important to the cause, and there is power inherent in that name. But structurally, we may find the truth isn't so clear cut.

An analogy comes to mind (but in purely political terms, NOT in any moral sense) would be to compare the LRPB to the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve versus the President. The members of the Board are picked by the Detweilers and within their area of competence are left alone, but in all other areas the Detweilers wield the power. So in absolute power the Detweilers are higher than the Board, but within its narrow scope the LRPB is allowed freedom.

My impression of the LRPB was that it controlled the tinkering and direction of the uplift program of the Alignment. They are the guiding minds and hands of the genetic experimentaion and direction. This is the scientific -genetic specific- operating side.

The Detweiler clones are certainly each modified to push various traits but they are also at the tip of the power structure and strategic/tactical planning. They are the operating management.

What we see on Mesa for the Alignemnt and people in and outside the Onion is people getting their children through the board, either their own genetic materials with modifications, additions etc or they got essentialy children to raise as "theirs" but were parts of ongoing modification experiment. Dr. Simoes and his wife were given their daughter to raise and they knew she was a product of an experimental line. What drops that into the plot line is that he has bonded with the child and when she is not working out- per the experiment- she is culled and he looses it with grief. We think the McBride children are more or less the same thing, just not on the cutting edge of a particular specialty where they are not only not showing massive increases in whatever talents were modified but they were also more normal (from a human perspective) having had a good family life even if the two boys are inside the Onion to varying degrees though their parents and sibs are apparently not.

Two differnt spheres of operation and planning.

Brigade XO wrote:What we see on Mesa for the Alignemnt and people in and outside the Onion is people getting their children through the board, either their own genetic materials with modifications, additions etc or they got essentialy children to raise as "theirs" but were parts of ongoing modification experiment. Dr. Simoes and his wife were given their daughter to raise and they knew she was a product of an experimental line. What drops that into the plot line is that he has bonded with the child and when she is not working out- per the experiment- she is culled and he looses it with grief. We think the McBride children are more or less the same thing, just not on the cutting edge of a particular specialty where they are not only not showing massive increases in whatever talents were modified but they were also more normal (from a human perspective) having had a good family life even if the two boys are inside the Onion to varying degrees though their parents and sibs are apparently not.

Two differnt spheres of operation and planning.

Francesca Simões appears to be an exception, not the rule, to the regular genetic uplift program. She was clearly an experimental project, which means she was conceived via carefully selected gametes and probably received genetic treatment to make the genes exist and express themselves. We're also told she was given to Dr. Simões and his wife for raising.

But there's no evidence that the McBrides aren't biological children of their parents. You can still accomplish a lot by eugenics, simply by selecting the partners. Albrecht had his wife specially selected and I presume all of the wives of his clones are the same. And if your long-term goal is a stable genetic population that can keep the traits you wish without outside help, you should probably be trying that now.

That doesn't mean there's no control. It's a very likely that Star Line children are conceived in vitro and then some genetic screening is performed, at least. Genetic modification at this stage may or may not be commonplace. I expect that "baseline" work is done to exclude known diseases and maybe apply some expressions that are wished for in the full population. But I don't expect targeted work for everyone, maybe only a few Alpha Lines.

Here's a scary thought: if all children of the ruling elite are conceived in vitro and you control all laboratories that perform paternity and maternity testing, what's stopping you from replacing the genetic contribution from one or both of the parents, and get away with it?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Francesca Simões appears to be an exception, not the rule, to the regular genetic uplift program. She was clearly an experimental project, which means she was conceived via carefully selected gametes and probably received genetic treatment to make the genes exist and express themselves. We're also told she was given to Dr. Simões and his wife for raising.

Perhaps not as much an exception as you think: I believe we are told that the Bardasano line was developed in vitro, also the Detweiler line. A case of cloning with modifications. Yes, the LRPB was interested in what random biology might turn up; but there was also a lot of gene editing going on.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Francesca Simões appears to be an exception, not the rule, to the regular genetic uplift program. She was clearly an experimental project, which means she was conceived via carefully selected gametes and probably received genetic treatment to make the genes exist and express themselves. We're also told she was given to Dr. Simões and his wife for raising.

Perhaps not as much an exception as you think: I believe we are told that the Bardasano line was developed in vitro, also the Detweiler line. A case of cloning with modifications. Yes, the LRPB was interested in what random biology might turn up; but there was also a lot of gene editing going on.

Let me be more specific: I do think in vitro conception and eugenetic selection of partners is widespread and commonplace in the MAlign, in all Star Lines. Moreover, splicing of proven sequences is probably done in all of them too, with more effort on Alphas than Gammas, at the time of conception.

Francesca was special because her traits were highly experimental. So she really had no parents and had to be raised by a couple who would give her the education and upbringing a child needs. There's only so much you can glean from humans raised as "lab animals," since they'll never be productive members of society.

Bardasano appears to be a similar, if not as extreme case. She seems to have experimental qualities, as we've seen text talking about how a new iteration/generation of Bardasanos might need adjustments. She was probably conceived in vitro from selected gametes and then raised by a suitable family.

The Detweilers are unlikely to be such a case. Their genetic code probably contains only the most proven traits and if it were not for the fact that there were six of them, Albrecht and Evie might have raised in their own household. As it was, four to six of them were probably raised by "noble" families until early adulthood. And if there's any thing that they are experimented on is the combination of certain traits that are reserved exclusively to them. Because of course they have done that. But Albrecht himself may have been a "normal" child, raised by *Zebediah Detweiler.

And that's what I expect happens to the majority of the Star Lines.

* unattested. The letter before A, if you wrap around the alphabet, is Z. Unless they use the Norwegian alphabet, in which case it might have been Åsbjørn Detweiler.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Francesca Simões appears to be an exception, not the rule, to the regular genetic uplift program. She was clearly an experimental project, which means she was conceived via carefully selected gametes and probably received genetic treatment to make the genes exist and express themselves. We're also told she was given to Dr. Simões and his wife for raising.

tlb wrote:Perhaps not as much an exception as you think: I believe we are told that the Bardasano line was developed in vitro, also the Detweiler line. A case of cloning with modifications. Yes, the LRPB was interested in what random biology might turn up; but there was also a lot of gene editing going on.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Let me be more specific: I do think in vitro conception and eugenetic selection of partners is widespread and commonplace in the MAlign, in all Star Lines. Moreover, splicing of proven sequences is probably done in all of them too, with more effort on Alphas than Gammas, at the time of conception.

Francesca was special because her traits were highly experimental. So she really had no parents and had to be raised by a couple who would give her the education and upbringing a child needs. There's only so much you can glean from humans raised as "lab animals," since they'll never be productive members of society.

Bardasano appears to be a similar, if not as extreme case. She seems to have experimental qualities, as we've seen text talking about how a new iteration/generation of Bardasanos might need adjustments. She was probably conceived in vitro from selected gametes and then raised by a suitable family.

The Detweilers are unlikely to be such a case. Their genetic code probably contains only the most proven traits and if it were not for the fact that there were six of them, Albrecht and Evie might have raised in their own household. As it was, four to six of them were probably raised by "noble" families until early adulthood. And if there's any thing that they are experimented on is the combination of certain traits that are reserved exclusively to them. Because of course they have done that. But Albrecht himself may have been a "normal" child, raised by *Zebediah Detweiler.

And that's what I expect happens to the majority of the Star Lines.

* unattested. The letter before A, if you wrap around the alphabet, is Z. Unless they use the Norwegian alphabet, in which case it might have been Åsbjørn Detweiler.

This does not really answer the question, but I thought it is germane. The issue is that in order to be able to talk about a Detweiler or Bardasano line, then the inclusion of genetic material has to be controlled. Cthia and I had an argument about this some years ago, because he believed each generation involved the normal mingling of the DNA of two people; which would dilute the contribution of the named ancestor. I insisted that modifications done in the lab, could preserve the distinction.
In Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong" RFC wrote:

The Beowulf code is entirely prepared for genetic modification to deal with recognized disease states, and within the limits of the donor genetic material which is combined to create a human being, the Beowulf code is prepared to allow the parents to mitigate what they — the parents — see as undesirable characteristics and to enhance what they — the parents — see as desirable characteristics. There are some mods that a Beowulfan geneticist would not be prepared to perform, whatever the parents desired, however. For example, Beowulf’s experience with the consequences of enhancing human intelligence has indicated that beyond a certain point, the negative personal and societal consequences rapidly begin exceeding the positive ones. Both the Meyerdahl and the Wynton genetic mods included a sort of general intelligence enhancement, but not something that was designed to produce cognitive geniuses or idiot savants. It was, if you will, a generalist enhancement, which still carries what some people would argue are some potentially hefty negative consequences. What happened with Francesca Simoes is an example of the sort of direct, immediate, severely negative consequences Beowulf is unprepared to risk in the pursuit of greater — or more "targeted" — intellectual improvement. There are are bunches and bunches of less immediately negative consequences which have been well documented, not simply on Beowulf but in other places in the galaxy’s medical literature. The Alignment is prepared to accept those negative consequences in order to enhance specific desired consequences, and to cull dramatic failures (like Francesca) or entire lines (as almost happened to the Bardasano line) if it proves less than satisfactory or dangerously unreliable (to the Alignment and its purposes). At the same time, the Alignment is prepared to tolerate highly negative consequences — like a taste for sadism slaked using genetic slaves — if that seems advantageous to its purposes. This means, on the one hand, that the Alignment is prepared to “throw away” its mistakes, whereas Beowulf argues that medical ethics preclude the pursuit of a desired outcome at the likely cost of being compelled to decide to cull an individual or an entire line of individuals. On the other hand, the Alignment is prepared to build in negatives in order to achieve positives (as defined by the Alignment), which reminds Beowulf all to clearly of the Asian super soldiers of the Final War.
--- snip --
Since I’ve already wandered somewhat afield from the topic I originally set out to discuss, I should also point out that Albrecht Detweiler and his sons are not clones of Leonard Detweiler. They are, in effect, the current generation of the steadily improved Detweiler genotype. Remember we’re talking about a prolong society here, and the actual age difference between Albrecht and Benjamin isn’t very great for that sort of society. Nor are the offspring of the Detweiler “sons” genetic duplicates of their parents. Albrecht was cloned, frankly, because by all of the tests the Alignment could apply, he was going to be an incredibly capable generalist and leader and the Long-Range Planning Board decided that given how far into the endgame of the Alignment’s strategy they were, it made a great deal of sense to provide an entire cohort of equally capable leaders to whom Albrecht could delegate areas of responsibility.

From Torch of Freedom, chapter 17:

Bardasano nodded, although her own expression didn't even flicker. Of course, she represented one of Long-Range Planning's in vitro lines, McBryde reminded himself, and one which had been culled more than once, itself. For that matter, at least one of her own immediate clones had been culled, and not until late adolescence, at that, if he remembered correctly. Still, while the culled Bardasano had been the next best thing to a genetic duplicate to Isabel (not quite; there'd been a few experimental differences, of course), it had scarcely been what the word "brother" or "sister" would have implied to a man like Jack McBryde. Like a lot—even the majority—of LRPB's in vitro children, she'd been tube-birthed and crèche-raised, not placed in a regular family environment or encouraged to form sibling bonds with her fellow clones. No one had ever officially told McBryde anything of the sort, but he strongly suspected that lack of encouragement represented a deliberate policy on the Board's part—a way to avoid the creation of potentially conflicting loyalties. So maybe this was simply too far outside her own experience for her to have more than a purely intellectual appreciation for Herlander Simões' anguish.

tlb wrote:From Torch of Freedom, chapter 17:

Bardasano nodded, although her own expression didn't even flicker. Of course, she represented one of Long-Range Planning's in vitro lines, McBryde reminded himself, and one which had been culled more than once, itself. For that matter, at least one of her own immediate clones had been culled, and not until late adolescence, at that, if he remembered correctly. Still, while the culled Bardasano had been the next best thing to a genetic duplicate to Isabel (not quite; there'd been a few experimental differences, of course), it had scarcely been what the word "brother" or "sister" would have implied to a man like Jack McBryde. Like a lot—even the majority—of LRPB's in vitro children, she'd been tube-birthed and crèche-raised, not placed in a regular family environment or encouraged to form sibling bonds with her fellow clones. No one had ever officially told McBryde anything of the sort, but he strongly suspected that lack of encouragement represented a deliberate policy on the Board's part—a way to avoid the creation of potentially conflicting loyalties. So maybe this was simply too far outside her own experience for her to have more than a purely intellectual appreciation for Herlander Simões' anguish.

Thanks for the quotes, tlb.

So Isabel Bardasano was not raised by a family, but in a creche. A mid-point between "lab animal" and "regular childhood." I hadn't considered that. But the same passage says that Jack McBride had a different concept of "brother" and "sister," so that tells me he was raised normally. And considering all of his family aside from his brother Zack were not Onion members at all, they couldn't have been let in on the LRPB's designs and methods.

Speaking of the LRPB, I can see why RFC's text you quoted could lead one to interpret that the LRPB had control over the Detweilers. He said that it was the LRPB's decision to have multiple clones made, instead of a I suppose a single like himself in the beginning. But this could easily have been under the guidance or even overt pressure of the previous Detweiler ruler.

Tubed children are considered normal in SEM. I believe children are routinely screend for known genetic problems and they can usualy be corrected before birth. What is not routine on Manticore or anywhere in the SEM is altering genetics for particular results.
As we know, there are many genies in the SEM, Honor is the one most visable but it is mentioned that the Queen's family are also of modified genetics. Then, of course, there are a fair number of people who are or are decended of genetic slaves who were freed - mostly my RMN intercepting slavers plus people who have immigrated there. That an ancestor had modifications isn't a problem, doing the kinds of thing Mese or the Alignment does is a big problem.

The Alignment has all sorts of people who are part of on-going genetic research. Bardasano is probably the most visable but then you see the clone bodyguards of Albrect (male and female) and there is some sort of joking in one of the books that individuals grown and modified to be accountants are the (still common) stereotype of exacting, fussy, rule-following account personality. I think RFC was making a point that some things that may be linked to genetics in the way of aptitude for various jobs or professions are going to probably carry other traits we would recogzine as a stereotype for those persons.
Remember that along with being a cover and throw-away scapegoat for the Alignment, Mesa and Manpowere plus various other companies are an experimental and custom genome design industry which has masked the Alignment labs in the volume and diversity of the genetic-slaves on demand industries. Workers (of all sorts) sex slaves, performers, people tailored to heavy world conditions.
The Alignment has been developing the Star Lines for a long time. You have people optimized or at least improved over centuries both specificaly for Star Line and for "other" things. They try out tests on what are essentialy genetic slaves and add the improvements or adaptations as thought required to the Stars. In the end, however, people like Bardasano are ultimately disposable tools however usefull they may be and to last as long as she did means they found her adequate for her job but note that at one point it seems they were looking a culling the entire line (recent anyway) as they felt she was out in the unbalanced/unstable range if briliant at what she did and they needed to prune back that line and try other changes. Cold. VERY VERY COLD in the evaluation of the products of the LTPB and any of the experiments.

Jack McBride discovered that he was sympathetic to Simões and felt pain for him. That sensitivity probably made him very good at his job but when force to be Simões' minder and keep him working on Streak Drive development, I guess Jack had to examin his feelings both about the "culling" of Simões's daughter - yet another experiment in that line that wasn't working- and the only reason that Dr. Simões was still alive was he was a research asset and the Alignment wanted as much out of him as possible before he was no longer capable of working---and then would be culled. That was all the Dr. represented to the Alignment. And while his wife may have had human feelings toward him, she couldn't understand the connection to their daughter who was clearly (in the view of the LRPB and Dr. Mrs Simões very Onion way of thinking) "only" a failed experiment and was to be discarded as such. Not worth ANY compassion or sympathy or anything remotely approching love.

We see Darius as the planet Mesa was (at least sort of) intended to be with the "sccecies" (not called that on Daruus) as being well treated workers who are designed and born (decanted) to do whaterver they were designed to be and do and are the willing and believing citizens of Darius who know their place in the casts and stratification of whaterver the Alignment calles the system of government on the planet. The workers of Darius are essentialy segrigated from the Houdini lift people and probably from most Star Lines. They are described as slaves who don't know they are slaves. They don't have the concept, they only have a massively self renforcing system that has them as- I guess you might call them citizens- who live under a set of laws and treatment the way Mesa was supposed to be for the products of the genetic labs with no fram of reference to any other condition or desire. Really arn't told what they consider Star Line people as. Really don't know how much contact the Dariusians have with Star Lines.

This is the Alignment. At this point they have a place for their worker cattle who don't know they are slaves and are not "mistreated" as the Seccies were on Mesa.
For the Alignment, most individuals are expendable tools.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Speaking of the LRPB, I can see why RFC's text you quoted could lead one to interpret that the LRPB had control over the Detweilers. He said that it was the LRPB's decision to have multiple clones made, instead of a {I suppose} a single like himself in the beginning. But this could easily have been under the guidance or even overt pressure of the previous Detweiler ruler.

I assume that the LRPB only has control over the Detweiler genome, not the Detweiler actions as head on the onion. Just like the Federal Reserve Board has control of the money supply, but not all the other actions of the government in the US. Within its area of expertise the LRPB has been granted enormous freedom and those decisions might influence outside actions, but that influence is not the same as full control.

tlb wrote:I assume that the LRPB only has control over the Detweiler genome, not the Detweiler actions as head on the onion. Just like the Federal Reserve Board has control of the money supply, but not all the other actions of the government in the US. Within its area of expertise the LRPB has been granted enormous freedom and those decisions might influence outside actions, but that influence is not the same as full control.

That's a good analogy. There's the question of whether the Detweiler ruler can fire board members and replace them with others to his liking. If not that, then of course there's the fact that he can exert pressure.