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United Provinces devopment

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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:02 am

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PeterZ wrote:Dennis, I am rereading TFT. Dohlar had their first modern foundry and manufactory started in 901-902. The UP had their started in 905. Dohlar will have their manufactory up and running for 12-13 years using turbine powered pneumatic power tools. The UP will have their first foundry and manufactory up and running for 9 years. As I recall in 9 years Merlin took Charis from oar powered galleys to steam powered armored cruisers supported by 8-10 manufactories.

I can see Dohlar duplicating that feat and the UP exceeding that total. Recall that Boisseau has the lions share of Harchong's craftsmen. Harchong is renowned for having the best craftsmen on Safehold. That core group of craftsmen will be the backbone of the manufactory system. They will be the supervisors and trainers for all those serfs and peasants. Dohlar will be just behind because they won't have the same number of craftsmen. Heck, I doubt Charis had as many craftsmen as Boisseau.

Bottom line is that the UP will start off with more trained personnel and with a higher tech base than Charis did pre-Merlin. That argues for their going farther faster than Charis.
Erls wrote:
The UP has 'trained personnel' in the same way that continental Europe had far more 'trained personnel' than Britain at the start of the Industrial Revolution. That is to say, someone extremely well trained in hand-crafting swords, arbalests, muskets, or thousands of other things is still completely untrained as far as an industrial economy is concerned.

Keep in mind that Dohlar, out of all of Charis' enemies during the Jihad, came closest to matching Charis. That means that they started (post-war) with a better tech base than the UP.
And they didn't have a civil war to contend with. They have a growing relationship with Charis that is only going to grow closer as all of Dohlar's neighbors turn against Charis (and them). Thirsk's grandson is now prince consort of the Empire (Spoiler!) as well. The UP may well be growing faster than Dohlar is - they just are not caught up yet in terms of total development.

Good points. I would remind you that the state of craftsmanship in the UP was better than was the case in Charis. That is the trained personnel were very good at making things one item at a time. Charis transitioned into mass production in 9 years. The UP starts with a better and deeper base of those trained craftsmen as a percentage of their population along with a larger population to boot.

That means they have more institutional knowledge in the hands of more people to train up the UP workforce. Finding people to work their first manufactory will be a piece of cake. Training up the cadre for the second manufactory will also be easier than it was in Charis. They won't have to re-invent the wheel, but simply adopt and perhaps tweak proven processes that have made Charis so successful.

Also recall that Harchong has secular institutions teaching administration. I translate that as managing processes in organizations with large numbers of people. The principle skillset for that is executing defined processes and systems. Innovation might suffer, but, barring graft, efficiency would be improved. I think of the Japanese post WWII. W. Edwards Deming's work there created a process centric model that drove quality and efficiency. The Up is primed to follow that avenue. Not everyone will be process oriented, but enough very well educated people there will be process oriented to make those organizations succeed handsomely. Others will innovate, but I suspect there are more than enough skilled process folks around to spawn lots of manufactories focusing on efficiency over innovation. Their success will draw lots of investment seeking just that efficiency.

Dohlar will more closely follow the innovation centric model of Charis. Their production will be efficient, but trail behind the UPers. Dohlar will develop novel applications that the UP might miss. I see the UP approaching Charisian per capita productivity much faster than Dohlar and Dohlar approaching Charisian's innovative mindset much better.
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:05 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:PeterZ
Yes that does make sense :)

But it also.means the Anti-Charis Triumverate will realize this....
Which means they absolutely WILL try to derail it.
How though?

GOOD Question!

The Bad Guy Triumvirate won't recognize the problem in the same way. They'll just see Charis getting richer and richer as a result of the Harchong revolution. They won't recognize that the demand in the UP is independent of whatever Charis can produce. That Charisian sales is a RESULT of that demand. That being the case, the Big, Bad, Three will target the problem in different ways.

South Harchong will send in their military in a Reconquista effort. Control the territory and Charis can't sell bupkis.

Siddermark will try to undercut Charisian prices in the UP as well as trying to sell to both Harchong and Desnair. They'll market towards the anti-Charisian sentiment in those places.

Desnair will support both approaches. I can see Desnairian mercenaries aiding South Harchong. Further, Desnair will sell whatever steam powered weapons platforms they can to South Harchong. Furthermore, Desnair will try to sell anything they can to the UP, East Hachong or whatever other territorial head of state/warlord has the money to buy their goods.

Trying anything else will be laughable.


Reconquista? Probably not... At least not as long as ICN rules Gulf of Dohlar...also, If N. Harchong becomes as well off as you are projecting, there is no way that S. Harchong will be able to compete militarily.

It seems more likely that we will see a revolution that overthrows emperor and aristocracy in the south than a reconquista over the north.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:26 pm

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PeterZ wrote:GOOD Question!

The Bad Guy Triumvirate won't recognize the problem in the same way. They'll just see Charis getting richer and richer as a result of the Harchong revolution. They won't recognize that the demand in the UP is independent of whatever Charis can produce. That Charisian sales is a RESULT of that demand. That being the case, the Big, Bad, Three will target the problem in different ways.

South Harchong will send in their military in a Reconquista effort. Control the territory and Charis can't sell bupkis.

Siddermark will try to undercut Charisian prices in the UP as well as trying to sell to both Harchong and Desnair. They'll market towards the anti-Charisian sentiment in those places.

Desnair will support both approaches. I can see Desnairian mercenaries aiding South Harchong. Further, Desnair will sell whatever steam powered weapons platforms they can to South Harchong. Furthermore, Desnair will try to sell anything they can to the UP, East Hachong or whatever other territorial head of state/warlord has the money to buy their goods.

Trying anything else will be laughable.
n7axw wrote:
Reconquista? Probably not... At least not as long as ICN rules Gulf of Dohlar...also, If N. Harchong becomes as well off as you are projecting, there is no way that S. Harchong will be able to compete militarily.

It seems more likely that we will see a revolution that overthrows emperor and aristocracy in the south than a reconquista over the north.

Don

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Agreed. A recnquista effort won't translate to a successful reconquest. That doesn't mean Desnair won't rent their mercenaries anyway. I can see the ICN giving a pass to Desnairian troop ships headed to the Grand Duchy of Laiching to fight East Harchong. I can see that in exchange for Desnair not aiding Siddermark in trying to keep Thesmar and Glacierheart from seceding. Especially if by letting the IDN and IHN warships successfully "escort" troop ships encourages further warship development. That is if the ICN conveys the idea that the IHNand IDN risk fleet has indeed somewhat cowed the Empire of Charis into backing down a bit.

I can see the EoC doing that at the same time as selling all sorts of military tech to East Harchong. You know, steam tanks built in the UP, rifled field artillery, semi-automatic weapons and access to the Imperial Air Force.
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:50 pm

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This is an off topic question. What is the deal about RFC having a concussion? Anybody know any details?

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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