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United Provinces devopment

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by Isilith   » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:55 pm

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SilverbladeTE wrote:DMcCunney
Regarding unions...simple problem is Human Nature.
Humans in groups tend to be moronic arseholes, alas, because the inertia and corruption drag the group towards the lower end of the spectrum :(
This applies everywhere, sigh.
Hard, ugly brutal fact.
Takes a lot of effort.to reduce that problem and few.really think about it in detail and admit it, or its true menace to our species survival...much easier for folk to blame a group or a "side" rather than the real problem

With the military for example, you have harsh bloody "Darwinism" in action that ends up cleaning some of that out but at great cost, then post-war, it builds up again.
See the grotesque incompetence and stupidity of the first years of both World Wars...ugh.
Idea of shooting a crap load of officers and bureaucrats say around 1933....

In the US, your "robber barons" used thugs and corruption to break Unionism, people were machine gunned for goodness sake and even bombed from the air!
Organized crime infiltration is just icing on the cake...you can add not fixing that to J Edgar the Hypocrite's many crimes, sigh.
And I know gangsters are monsters, oh I do know very well, no matter how "spiffed up" they are, they are obscene scum who degrade and ruin entire communities...definitely need dealt with by "Rule .303"

Our literal barons, lol, used some crooked law but mostly willier propaganda, setting worker against worker and jingoism, we.know that for fact now due to cheques etc the sods used to fund BOTH sides of the vicious, murderous Sectarianism, sigh.
Thus UK had very bitter division of worker vs management which did NO ONE any good long term.

Some German companies were far smarter, either by humane leadership or simple smart pragmatism: having workers on the board defanged the communists, bettered working conditions and improved production!
Win win :)


Lol, UK and USA joining, had lots of good chats and laughs on that over the years on some forums :)
Was a shame the Revolution had to happen, but it was absolutely needed, not merely for the Revolutionary side, but for the world, hugely important event.
Benjamin Franklin is one of my heroes ;)

Love the oft posted gag about the Queen telling Americans to use English properly etc :lol:

One of my fave alt history series is the superb
STARS AND STRIPES trilogy by Harry Harrison :)
Smug Victorians getting b*tchslapped by Yankees and Southerners, awesome sauce ;)

Been writing a time travel/alt history story for a while when I'm up to it, about a Scottish military Engineer going back in time to help William Wallace win.
That I think is one of the most crucial points in history things could be changed for the better.
The Normans twisted British law and custom for the worse, so stomping their asses amongst other things, could guide a better outcome.
And as I point out, the real problem was never the "English" it was always our own feckless nobles.


I just ordered that series, no idea why I haven't read it before, as I loved the Stainless Steel Rat series. Thanks!
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:59 pm

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Isilith
My pleasure! :)

I'd also suggest

THE ACCIDENTAL NAZI by Ward Wagher
I like tales where the Nazis get their arses handed to them by time travellers or history changes :twisted:
This series is very different from my usual faves in that the main character replaces the head of the Nazi party of a slightly different timeline
And the action is more moral and political than war and to defeat the Nazis from within without a bloodbath.

THE SEA EAGLES
Modern German patrol boat ends up back in 1939

THE WHALE HAS WINGS
this is an event/fact type of alt history tale, not a normal character driven one so not for everyone
However it does a damn good job of "putting the boot" into the grotesquely out of touch R.A.F. top brass and Air Ministry ratbags who basically screwed British air military to pathetic mess at start of the war :(
Those gits fought tooth and nail to prevent our country having dive bombers, ground attack aircraft, screwed the naval air forces, tried to.prevent adoption of the Spitifre etc etc and absolutely only were interested in the mass murder of German civilians as the only thing they'd allow
Really despise those swine for good reason :evil:
They wasted well over £600 billion in today's money and huge loss of life for their unGodly area bombing campaign which crippled British military, gah!
In this story, instead, the Fleet Air Arm manages to break away from those jackasses in 1933 which has huge consequences for the Royal Navy and eventually WW2.

H.M.S. HELIGOLAND, aka, THE BOIL ON THE KAISER'S BUM
awesome alt history story, Queen Alexandria prevents the filthy treacherous betrayal and sale of the island of Heligoland, which is one of the most shameful and stupid events in British history, grrr bloody short sighted greedy slimy useless politicians!
So, instead of the island becoming a German U boat base etc which cost terrible toll in both world wars...the locals happily remain British citizens as they wanted and the Royal Navy gets inspired....


Hope you enjoy those :)
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by mhicks   » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:38 pm

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[/quote]
Let's accept your recollection. There should be more than enough sets and peasants who know enough about spinning and weaving to operate powered looms. Charis doesn't have to offer much in the way of training. Sure, working the machines requires training, but translating their prior weaving knowledge into the new powered environment should be easy. That argues to textile prices to drop even further as the UP begins to industrialize and leverage their existing skills.[/quote]

Come to think of it the first computers were punch cards designed by loomers for making exquisite patterns in cloth. My dad had boxes of punch cards he "programed" in college. He kept them thinking he would be able to use them again one day. I still have floppy disks from my college days but no machine reads them now. :lol:

I see the textile industry "programing"" the first punch cards. Small steps that will get the populous ready for the big leap to computers when they become available.
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by Castenea   » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:41 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:I lived in Philadelphia (which was once the capital of what became the United States) during the run up to the 1976 Bicentennial Celebration. I was deeply amused to see a poster on a telephone pole saying "200 years was long enough to hold a grudge, and it was time for the colonies to resume their status as members of the British Empire and subjects of the Queen." It laid out the benefits accruing to both sides. The UK would get a huge economic shot in the arm. The US would get the benefit of a couple of millennia of tradition and practice. Governments might rise and fall, but the monarchy would still exist and everyone would still be subjects of her Majesty. I was tickled, and thought you could make a case for it, but I never did discover who was behind the poster.
______
Dennis
Worst possible out come of a reunification of the US and UK: Can you imagine this character as an important member of Parliament? https://youtu.be/cesSRfXqS1Q

The debate about who has the dumbest politician will make you lose IQ points.
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:10 am

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mhicks wrote:SNIP

Come to think of it the first computers were punch cards designed by loomers for making exquisite patterns in cloth. My dad had boxes of punch cards he "programed" in college. He kept them thinking he would be able to use them again one day. I still have floppy disks from my college days but no machine reads them now. :lol:

I see the textile industry "programing"" the first punch cards. Small steps that will get the populous ready for the big leap to computers when they become available.


Ah - happy days :-)
...my first few programs were on punched cards. Not very large ones, it has to be said.

You would see the serious dudes wandering round the campus clutching boxes of thse things the length of your arm. The absolute worst nightmare was to drop a box and scramble the cards!!
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:23 pm

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Michae wrote:On that note I see no reason why Charis wouldn't give the UP military tech as well. True they can always shuttle in guns and ammo by dirigible but the ability to manufacture as least the ammo for those guns on-site would be useful,as I can see the dirigibles being shot at either if war breaks out or some idiot attempting to stop supplies being delivered. As they do have those rockets floating around and them being mass-fired in the general direction of a dirigible, I'd be surprised if they didn't get at least one hit. After all fanatics don't always think about the results of such things.
SilverbladeTE wrote:

Some weapon tech, sure.
Smokeless powder...probably not, that's a HUGE game changer if enemies get the tech.

However...for the world to advance everyone needs the ability to.produce dynamite, Charis cannot supply the amounts needed for world industrialization!
So they may have to give other nations the knowledge of nitration chemistry...which eventually leads to TNT and cordite, though it would take many decades to develop stable smokeless propelllants, unless of course, it was stolen by a spy.

Bad enough if enemies get an advanced explosive for shells, far.worse if they get smokeless propellants.
And having Harchong factories producing bullets etc tech theft would eventually become inevitable.
You can bet many spies during the timeframe of Through Fiery Trials would be desperately trying to get smokeless powder info from Charis!

After the Hiaratha sabotage Charisian munitions factories probably have extreme security, over time though, any system fails.
Clyntahn's Rakurai showed everyone a means to.penetrate even Charisian security and you can bet that Mahry's and others are trying to set up tech theft and sabotage teams for the "long run"

Supplying ammo though for the wars to come in decades ahead may force the IC to set up such factories in Harchong though .

Smokeless powder will be a two way street. It allows for more frequent discharge of a firearm and so would increase the amount needed. That means much higher levels of production. Toss in use in brass cartridge's, multi round magazines feeding bolt action and potentially automatic and semi-automatic weapons. The production lines for smokeless powder rounds would require many of the techniques that would upset the guilds in those places wanting as little social upheaval as possible. Any nation unable to produce enough rounds may find themselves at the mercy of one that can.

The aristos would institute those changes to get the military advantages smokeless powder provides. That forces them to take one step closer to the full set of social changes Charis is making. The more complex the weapon, the more the production process to make it must resemble Charis'. Making sufficiently complex weapons as one offs will be prohibitively expensive.

So, smokeless powder will be an irresistible poisoned pill for those reactionary nations like Desnair, South Harhcong and much of Siddermark. Adopting it will force social changes on an increasingly large part of their society. Changes that may not be what Charis would have implemented, but changes that will stress those societies nonetheless.

So, yeah, the United Provinces will get smokeless and anything else short of warships. Since they will get the state of the art steam turbines and reciprocal steam engines, they will have a step ahead of Dohlar in producing their own warships. Still, I suspect the UP won't build their own warships right away. They will concentrate on rapidly building their industrial infrastructure. They'll have a powerful enough military to defend themselves against anyone, but will let others project force outside their nation.

East Harchong is altogether another kettle of fish.
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:46 pm

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PeterZ

that's a fair point!

and you can't have dumb soldiers if you want a modern military, as Vietnam etc proved :(
McNamarra, grr!
so, educated military eventually becomes a weapon that turns on tyrants, ironically enough...*cough* Stalin....

so you increase likelihood of technical society and, give them the means for rebellion one day.
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:17 pm

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SilverbladeTE wrote:PeterZ

that's a fair point!

and you can't have dumb soldiers if you want a modern military, as Vietnam etc proved :(
McNamarra, grr!
so, educated military eventually becomes a weapon that turns on tyrants, ironically enough...*cough* Stalin....

so you increase likelihood of technical society and, give them the means for rebellion one day.

You know, that also pretty much explains the Mighty Host. The primary difference was that the Emperor didn't want to take any chances and refused their re-entry.
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:44 am

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PeterZ wrote:By the end of the next book, the UP will be pushing past Dohlar in their manufacturing technology.
DMcCunney wrote:Unlikely. Dohlor is already well along in the development the UP needs to undertake, and fully understands why it's needed. (Among other things, it already has fairly substantial domestic steel making capability.) King Rahnyld was well schooled by Earl Thirsk, and will get behind it and push, and Dohlor is established enough that it won't need Armahk Plan help on the financing. Investors elsewhere (starting with Duke Delthak, but he won't be the only one) will pony up the money if Dohlor doesn't have what is needed internally.
______
Dennis

Dennis, I am rereading TFT. Dohlar had their first modern foundry and manufactory started in 901-902. The UP had their started in 905. Dohlar will have their manufactory up and running for 12-13 years using turbine powered pneumatic power tools. The UP will have their first foundry and manufactory up and running for 9 years. As I recall in 9 years Merlin took Charis from oar powered galleys to steam powered armored cruisers supported by 8-10 manufactories.

I can see Dohlar duplicating that feat and the UP exceeding that total. Recall that Boisseau has the lions share of Harchong's craftsmen. Harchong is renowned for having the best craftsmen on Safehold. That core group of craftsmen will be the backbone of the manufactory system. They will be the supervisors and trainers for all those serfs and peasants. Dohlar will be just behind because they won't have the same number of craftsmen. Heck, I doubt Charis had as many craftsmen as Boisseau.

Bottom line is that the UP will start off with more trained personnel and with a higher tech base than Charis did pre-Merlin. That argues for their going farther faster than Charis.
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Re: United Provinces devopment
Post by Erls   » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:39 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
PeterZ wrote:By the end of the next book, the UP will be pushing past Dohlar in their manufacturing technology.
DMcCunney wrote:Unlikely. Dohlor is already well along in the development the UP needs to undertake, and fully understands why it's needed. (Among other things, it already has fairly substantial domestic steel making capability.) King Rahnyld was well schooled by Earl Thirsk, and will get behind it and push, and Dohlor is established enough that it won't need Armahk Plan help on the financing. Investors elsewhere (starting with Duke Delthak, but he won't be the only one) will pony up the money if Dohlor doesn't have what is needed internally.
______
Dennis

Dennis, I am rereading TFT. Dohlar had their first modern foundry and manufactory started in 901-902. The UP had their started in 905. Dohlar will have their manufactory up and running for 12-13 years using turbine powered pneumatic power tools. The UP will have their first foundry and manufactory up and running for 9 years. As I recall in 9 years Merlin took Charis from oar powered galleys to steam powered armored cruisers supported by 8-10 manufactories.

I can see Dohlar duplicating that feat and the UP exceeding that total. Recall that Boisseau has the lions share of Harchong's craftsmen. Harchong is renowned for having the best craftsmen on Safehold. That core group of craftsmen will be the backbone of the manufactory system. They will be the supervisors and trainers for all those serfs and peasants. Dohlar will be just behind because they won't have the same number of craftsmen. Heck, I doubt Charis had as many craftsmen as Boisseau.

Bottom line is that the UP will start off with more trained personnel and with a higher tech base than Charis did pre-Merlin. That argues for their going farther faster than Charis.


The UP has 'trained personnel' in the same way that continental Europe had far more 'trained personnel' than Britain at the start of the Industrial Revolution. That is to say, someone extremely well trained in hand-crafting swords, arbalests, muskets, or thousands of other things is still completely untrained as far as an industrial economy is concerned.

Keep in mind that Dohlar, out of all of Charis' enemies during the Jihad, came closest to matching Charis. That means that they started (post-war) with a better tech base than the UP.
And they didn't have a civil war to contend with. They have a growing relationship with Charis that is only going to grow closer as all of Dohlar's neighbors turn against Charis (and them). Thirsk's grandson is now prince consort of the Empire (Spoiler!) as well. The UP may well be growing faster than Dohlar is - they just are not caught up yet in terms of total development.
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