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***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:01 am

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Why did they devote so much time, effort and passion keeping alive the memory of a dead Seijin? He was a saint but had that status removed. What drove generations of women to devote their lives to the memory of a dead and tarnished hero? A tarnished hero those generations only learned about AFTER they were recruited. So what qualities were they recruited for? I can see this group easily turning into a family/clan enterprise much like the Wylsyn's efforts. Certainly that would have been safer for simply honoring Khody. But they recruited outsiders with a rebellious nature, like Nynian. Why do that unless they had other goals. If those goals involved keeping the CoGA honest, then Schueler's participation becomes very likely.
Louis R wrote:Actually, we have no idea how perfect their secrecy was in the beginning - they may well, and I suspect did, have had someone covering for them at the start. However, by Nynian's time they had over nine hundred years of practice under their belts. It shouldn't be any surprise that they were quite adept. AFAICR there's no evidence that Helm Cleaver was created as a response to Clyntahn's rise to power, but there's no evidence whatsoever that it wasn't, either, and no need to assume it goes back generations. The expertise employed in it's creation is the expertise that has kept the SSK alive and the Shrine of St Khody intact.


PeterZ wrote:< snip >
The only supporting evidence I can point to is the SSK's willingness to develop direct action teams decades before the IC came out in the open. Madame Parson's identity was 20 years old as of the Sword of Schueler. Madame Alzhelique Phonda started almost 3 decades prior to the Sword of Schueler. That assumes this was the first effort at creating funding sources for potential direct action activities. I doubt this was because the SSK set up their shell funding sources with such perfect secrecy FROM THE BEGINNING. That argues against their doing it as a direct result of Clyntahn's rise to power. They were setting up their direct action teams and the supporting organizations in advance of some other motive or event.

What might that other motive be? Could it be the Millennia described by Schueler in his recorded message to the Wylsyns? I suspect it was.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by WeberFan   » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:04 am

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Onions within onions...

Himself likes to do that in his work. And he does it over and over again in all his work if you pay attention for it!

The Brethern knew the truth for centuries and worked slowly, oh so slowly from behind the scenes to change the status quo.

The Sisters of Saint Khody, worked for even longer. And while Himself hasn't explicitly TOLD us that they knew the truth, he also hasn't explicitly told us that they didn't. Given the early Sisterhood's exposure to Khody's writings, and given the sudden and traumatic end their first home came to, maybe they DID know more.

Maybe, just maybe, the Sisters have ANOTHER branch (one that Nynian may not even know about as the Mother Superior) that has been working all this time behind the scenes.

Or maybe there's another group that we just haven't been introduced to yet.

And maybe, just maybe, this fifth column has access to a limited tech base of Federation Tech.

Maybe they're hiding in plain sight and we're just not seeing them because we're not LOOKING for them.

As I write this, why am I reminded of Asimov's Second Foundation?

David told us about the second arrow in Shan Wei's quiver. Maybe there was a third. Or a fourth. An arrow that even Shan Wei didn't know about but one that was always working for the same thing. "Keep it secret. Keep it safe."

Generational change. Nay... MILLENIAL change...
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by ssl4000g   » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:56 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Why did they devote so much time, effort and passion keeping alive the memory of a dead Seijin? He was a saint but had that status removed. What drove generations of women to devote their lives to the memory of a dead and tarnished hero? A tarnished hero those generations only learned about AFTER they were recruited. So what qualities were they recruited for? I can see this group easily turning into a family/clan enterprise much like the Wylsyn's efforts. Certainly that would have been safer for simply honoring Khody. But they recruited outsiders with a rebellious nature, like Nynian. Why do that unless they had other goals. If those goals involved keeping the CoGA honest, then Schueler's participation becomes very likely.


That is an interesting point. Your comment about Sandaria and Nahrmahn is taken too. My recollection of her in the cave had her gradually getting past the problem with Nahrmahn. I could be remembering incorrectly too.

The SSK being devoted to Kohdy could be the religious aspect. These folks were predisposed to follow the Church and it's fighters. He was a seijin. They've been revered throughout history. They may not have viewed him as tarnished either, the Sisters were a functioning order before the WATF ended. Nynian talked about how Kohdy was cut from the list of saints and that the order carried on with their caretaking of his body.

From what we've learned so far in the story, the SSK knew something was wrong with the CoGA and the War, they had his diary. They also couldn't read it all. I think that's all we've been given via text. They may have brought in rebellious new recruits to protect the secret of his diary and the alternative thinking it generated. Secrets are a great way to create something 'special' that demands loyalty to the secret.

On the topic of Schueler, Paiter's association was via the Key. A tangible item and a miracle with the message to his family. We haven't had a clue from the story that the SSK had anything like that to associate them with Schueler. I felt too, from the textev, that the Command Staff never interacted with the regular folk, the lesser angels did. That does make on wonder how the Wyllsyn family got the Key though, which does give some credence to your final about the SSK's goals and Schueler's possible involvement. The Visitation being the SSK's version of acknowledging the Key?

W
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:11 am

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PeterZ wrote:Why did they devote so much time, effort and passion keeping alive the memory of a dead Seijin? He was a saint but had that status removed. What drove generations of women to devote their lives to the memory of a dead and tarnished hero?


Please. Do not underestimate the mindless devotion of religious fanatics.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:07 am

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Dilandu wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Why did they devote so much time, effort and passion keeping alive the memory of a dead Seijin? He was a saint but had that status removed. What drove generations of women to devote their lives to the memory of a dead and tarnished hero?


Please. Do not underestimate the mindless devotion of religious fanatics.


In fact, we have evidence in the text that this isn't 'mindless devotion ' - if there's even any such thing on Safehold. What the Sisters had, even with the evidence we know they had, was flat out evidence that the COGA lied. They knew the Writ had been changed, and they knew Kohdy had been airbrushed out of history.

So we're talking a devout dedication to the truth of witnesses. Kohdy may be the biggest mistake the COGA made, because it meant that the truth some people saw with their own eyes was now in conflict with the 'truth' of 'authority'. Previously, eyewitnesses and Writ agreed.

Now, if the Sisterhood is dedicated to the truth of experience (or eyewitness accounts of their experiences), then it might be that they'd be willing to, say, follow a set of instructions left them by their original Abbess along the lines of 'a New Testament will be revealed at this date, which I have read and know to be true'.

But my mind just boggles a bit at the Christians Merlin and Nimue rubbing their hands in glee at a Nahrmahn Plan that involves, basically, a fake New Testament. By Schueler, of all people.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:48 am

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PeterZ wrote:Why did they devote so much time, effort and passion keeping alive the memory of a dead Seijin? He was a saint but had that status removed. What drove generations of women to devote their lives to the memory of a dead and tarnished hero?
Dilandu wrote:Please. Do not underestimate the mindless devotion of religious fanatics.
Bluesqueak wrote:In fact, we have evidence in the text that this isn't 'mindless devotion ' - if there's even any such thing on Safehold. What the Sisters had, even with the evidence we know they had, was flat out evidence that the COGA lied. They knew the Writ had been changed, and they knew Kohdy had been airbrushed out of history.

So we're talking a devout dedication to the truth of witnesses. Kohdy may be the biggest mistake the COGA made, because it meant that the truth some people saw with their own eyes was now in conflict with the 'truth' of 'authority'. Previously, eyewitnesses and Writ agreed.

Now, if the Sisterhood is dedicated to the truth of experience (or eyewitness accounts of their experiences), then it might be that they'd be willing to, say, follow a set of instructions left them by their original Abbess along the lines of 'a New Testament will be revealed at this date, which I have read and know to be true'.

But my mind just boggles a bit at the Christians Merlin and Nimue rubbing their hands in glee at a Nahrmahn Plan that involves, basically, a fake New Testament. By Schueler, of all people.

The New Testament argument is the strongest support for this being Schueler. That parallel fits nicely with the birth of Christianity out of the Old Testament and Judaism.

In large part the Writ was first modified by Chihiro after Shaw-wei was killed and he fought the war Against the Fallen. The Testament of Schueler seeks to return the Writ to the original, first edition, of the Writ. Well, if not the first edition, then a modified third edition that addresses the failures of the second edition. In short the Testament of Schueler revises the expectations of the faithful much like the New Testament did for Jews and Gentiles becoming Christians.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:16 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:So we're talking a devout dedication to the truth of witnesses.


Which is basically what all religious fanatics based on: the devoid dedication to the "truth" as they think it is. In case of SSK, it's just the case of mindless devotion ACCIDENTALLY being based on actual truth)

Let's not forget, SSK did not knew all the details of what happens. Their all ideology was basically based on "something isn't right on Safehold, albeit we could not comprehend what exactly". While the Brotherhood of Saint Zherneau at least knew the actual truth in more or less coherent form & have really persuasive evidences in therms of Saint Zherneau's direct letter and books predating the Creation, SSK worked from far less sustainable basis.

Bluesqueak wrote:So we're talking a devout dedication to the truth of witnesses. Kohdy may be the biggest mistake the COGA made, because it meant that the truth some people saw with their own eyes was now in conflict with the 'truth' of 'authority'. Previously, eyewitnesses and Writ agreed.


Yes, this was strangely monumental blunder. The Archangel's actions around Kohdy seems... incoherent. Why exactly they returned the body? The "mystical disappearance" of Kohdy would be MUCH simpler to explain ("he was taken to the throne of Langhorn itself, of course!") than the existence of dead body. And Rakurai strike against the initial abbey was also... not exactly the best solution.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:35 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Why did they devote so much time, effort and passion keeping alive the memory of a dead Seijin? He was a saint but had that status removed. What drove generations of women to devote their lives to the memory of a dead and tarnished hero?
Dilandu wrote:
Please. Do not underestimate the mindless devotion of religious fanatics.

How can the SSK be fanatics when they were recruited to a cause they didn't know anything about until they were successfully recruited? Giving their lives to keep the memory of seijin Khody alive is a task they accepted after they were recruited.

Mindless devotion sounds like a view unbelievers like to cast upon those that do believe in a religion. Also sounds like the a pejorative religious fanatics, including fanatic atheist's, cast on those that believe differently than they do.
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:10 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:So we're talking a devout dedication to the truth of witnesses.


Which is basically what all religious fanatics based on: the devoid dedication to the "truth" as they think it is. In case of SSK, it's just the case of mindless devotion ACCIDENTALLY being based on actual truth)

Let's not forget, SSK did not knew all the details of what happens. Their all ideology was basically based on "something isn't right on Safehold, albeit we could not comprehend what exactly". While the Brotherhood of Saint Zherneau at least knew the actual truth in more or less coherent form & have really persuasive evidences in therms of Saint Zherneau's direct letter and books predating the Creation, SSK worked from far less sustainable basis.


This sounds rather like either you don't understand what mindless devotion is, or you don't understand what religious devotion is.

The Sisterhood of St Kohdy didn't accidentally hit on the truth. They were founded by people who knew Kohdy. The people who knew Kohdy were warned in advance that the Testimonies were going to be purged, and took steps. There's no accident about this, and there's no accident about the evidence provided to the young Sisters.

They know that the Church lies. The CoGA says Kohdy never existed - Nynian has read his diary and seen how Helm Cleaver can cut steel. She's seen his tomb. She isn't basing this on mindless devotion. Her theory is based on what she's seen, touched and read. Kohdy existed, and the church lied. There's no lack of comprehension about that part. They're not asking their young recruits to mindlessly accept stuff - they're showing them the evidence they've got.

Now, they are struggling with the idea that the Adams and Eves were somewhere else before Safehold, because Kohdy didn't understand what was going on himself. However, rather than having mindlessly picked one theory and sticking to it through thick and thin, they're arguing about it based on Kohdy's testimony.

There's a certain lack of mindlessness about the Sisterhood, and a substantial amount of hard-headed practicality.

Dilandu wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:So we're talking a devout dedication to the truth of witnesses. Kohdy may be the biggest mistake the COGA made, because it meant that the truth some people saw with their own eyes was now in conflict with the 'truth' of 'authority'. Previously, eyewitnesses and Writ agreed.


Yes, this was strangely monumental blunder. The Archangel's actions around Kohdy seems... incoherent. Why exactly they returned the body? The "mystical disappearance" of Kohdy would be MUCH simpler to explain ("he was taken to the throne of Langhorn itself, of course!") than the existence of dead body. And Rakurai strike against the initial abbey was also... not exactly the best solution.


Yes, that's the question, isn't it? Who decided that Kohdy had to be written out of history? Who decided that his order had to be wiped out, because they were bound to recognise that the Testimonies had been edited? Who seems to have treated the entire Sisterhood of St Kohdy as so dangerous that they had to be blotted out of existence?

Which rather gets back to PeterZ's question. Why were the Sisterhood so devoted and what was it that made Kohdy so dangerous that the Church couldn't even afford to have him remembered as a real person?
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Re: ***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Tr
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:55 pm

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I would add, Bluesqueak, that what the SSK has told the IC about their motives seems incomplete. There has to be more that drives them besides knowing Khody was defamed by the CoGA. That an archangel LIED about essential truths in the Writ. This last was just alluded to, but that has the potential to be devastating to Safehold. If archangels believed to not have fallen can lie, the how valid is the Writ?

That sort of conclusion is a big step away from being a caretaker for a defamed fallen hero. Yet that is much more consistent with what the SSK has become now.
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