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Charles in 1923 PD...

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Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by Theemile   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:44 pm

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I can see him resurfacing as a used LAC dealer, going from verge system to verge system, pedaling early 2nd war ex-Havenite Cimmetiers (sic) that are now second hand, which he... somehow... acquired.

"You too can own the Mighty Midget ship that ruined Manticore's day. Practicaly brand new, only 3 or 4 years of use on any of them. Used correctly, a handful of these will bring down a Dreadnaught. They are a bargin at twice the price."

"How can you Afford Not to buy them?"

Ammunition and spares not included. Free support offer not valid outside of the Havenite Territories. Please consult manufacturer for more information. All Sales Final.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by Maldorian   » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:18 pm

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I am not so familiar with all the side characters in Honorverse.
Was Charles Erik Flint´s solarian "Adventurer" how tricked the Havinite and made also the Andermani angry?
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Re: Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:02 am

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Maldorian wrote:I am not so familiar with all the side characters in Honorverse.
Was Charles Erik Flint´s solarian "Adventurer" how tricked the Havinite and made also the Andermani angry?


Not Eric Flint. Charles was a character in two stories wrtten by Timothy Zahn: "With One Stone" and "An Act of War".
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by kzt   » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:42 am

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Pretty minor, and everything there is ignored in the mainline.
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Re: Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by Maldorian   » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:55 pm

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Maldorian wrote:
I am not so familiar with all the side characters in Honorverse.
Was Charles Erik Flint´s solarian "Adventurer" how tricked the Havinite and made also the Andermani angry?


Not Eric Flint. Charles was a character in two stories wrtten by Timothy Zahn: "With One Stone" and "An Act of War".


You are right, it was Timothy Zahn. I don´t know how I mixed it up.

Well, has anybody thought of a story of Chqarles at Manticore? He was in the Republik Heaven to make money, sweet speak them to interact with the Andermani, but for the manticorian´s he is still unknown.

What information could he collect under cover as a solarian new reporter? He has only to listen all the sailors at Vulcan or Hephaistos to get a image of the range of manticorian missles, take pictures of the ships in the docks to identify the different classes and so on. Maybe Haven has all that, but the solarian navy´s or the Andermani?

But the big deal is the manticorian compensator. Or should I say "The Grayson Compensator"! Add two and two together. The civilisation of grayson split up do Grayson and Masada. I bet the ships that brought the people to Masada had the same ompensator technology as the Graysons have now.

So, investigate the occupied Masada, find the Compensator tec there and sell it for a fortune to the solarians and/or the Andermani. Maybe he was celebrating his success in a bar on one of the manticorian space stations as the Allingnement destroyed them..........bad luck!
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Re: Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by Eagleeye   » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:27 am

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Maldorian wrote:
[...]
But the big deal is the manticorian compensator. Or should I say "The Grayson Compensator"! Add two and two together. The civilisation of grayson split up do Grayson and Masada. I bet the ships that brought the people to Masada had the same ompensator technology as the Graysons have now.

So, investigate the occupied Masada, find the Compensator tec there and sell it for a fortune to the solarians and/or the Andermani. Maybe he was celebrating his success in a bar on one of the manticorian space stations as the Allingnement destroyed them..........bad luck!


I was under the impression, that the Grayson compensator was developed only after Benjamin The Great kicked the Masadans from Graysons soil - that, for the sake of the exilants, they used whatever they still had available at that time(or at least knew, how to build) from their own colony-ship-techbase.
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Re: Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by Theemile   » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:15 am

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Eagleeye wrote:
Maldorian wrote:
[...]
But the big deal is the manticorian compensator. Or should I say "The Grayson Compensator"! Add two and two together. The civilisation of grayson split up do Grayson and Masada. I bet the ships that brought the people to Masada had the same ompensator technology as the Graysons have now.

So, investigate the occupied Masada, find the Compensator tec there and sell it for a fortune to the solarians and/or the Andermani. Maybe he was celebrating his success in a bar on one of the manticorian space stations as the Allingnement destroyed them..........bad luck!


I was under the impression, that the Grayson compensator was developed only after Benjamin The Great kicked the Masadans from Graysons soil - that, for the sake of the exilants, they used whatever they still had available at that time(or at least knew, how to build) from their own colony-ship-techbase.


The Graysons devised their compensator because the outside universe would not sell them designs of the standard one due to their technologically backwards society.

So the design came sometime after Grayson was re-discovered by galactic society, significantly later than the Masadian exodus. The exodus most likely used Bussard ram-scoop fusion designs, like the original Grayson cryo ship did.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by Maldorian   » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:37 am

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The Graysons devised their compensator because the outside universe would not sell them designs of the standard one due to their technologically backwards society.

So the design came sometime after Grayson was re-discovered by galactic society, significantly later than the Masadian exodus. The exodus most likely used Bussard ram-scoop fusion designs, like the original Grayson cryo ship did.


If the Grayson Compensator was invented after the slit up with Masada, the Masadians would still have the tec. Masada and Grayson were at war for qa long time. I bet Masada get one of the Grayson Compensators in their hands.

The big difference would be, that the knowledge of the Compensator wouldn´t be common technical knowlege, but somewere buried in an archiv with a topic like "matching Grayson Compensator with Compensators delivered by the silesians".

With other words: If Masada had the Compensator tec at the first travel to masada and used them to today = good chance to get that tec.

If the tec is buried somewere in a database unused = very low chance to get the data.
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Re: Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by Theemile   » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:54 am

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Maldorian wrote:
The Graysons devised their compensator because the outside universe would not sell them designs of the standard one due to their technologically backwards society.

So the design came sometime after Grayson was re-discovered by galactic society, significantly later than the Masadian exodus. The exodus most likely used Bussard ram-scoop fusion designs, like the original Grayson cryo ship did.


If the Grayson Compensator was invented after the slit up with Masada, the Masadians would still have the tec. Masada and Grayson were at war for qa long time. I bet Masada get one of the Grayson Compensators in their hands.

The big difference would be, that the knowledge of the Compensator wouldn´t be common technical knowlege, but somewere buried in an archiv with a topic like "matching Grayson Compensator with Compensators delivered by the silesians".

With other words: If Masada had the Compensator tec at the first travel to masada and used them to today = good chance to get that tec.

If the tec is buried somewere in a database unused = very low chance to get the data.



I would have to say you are correct. According to the short story on Masada, Judith's husband owned a former Grayson freighter (the one Judith was captured on) for nearly a decade, so Masada had seen Grayson comp tech, even if their own was developed separately.

Now, the Grayson comp technology, as it sat in 1902, was not more efficient than Manticore's, but worked differently enough that Honor was able to notice the differences when told Grayson had developed their independently. Only when Manticore techs worked with Grayson subject matter experts was it noticed that the Grayson technology would not have the same accel and mass limitations as the conventional ones.

So the open questions are Where did Masada get their comps, and if they ever noticed any of the benefits.

Probably not, or Masada would have used that as a bargaining chip with Haven, and got more than a BC and a DD in the process. And Haven would have the advanced comps roughly in line with Manticore, not 10 or so years later.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Charles in 1923 PD...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:35 pm

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Maldorian wrote:
If the Grayson Compensator was invented after the slit up with Masada, the Masadians would still have the tec. Masada and Grayson were at war for qa long time. I bet Masada get one of the Grayson Compensators in their hands.

The big difference would be, that the knowledge of the Compensator wouldn´t be common technical knowlege, but somewere buried in an archiv with a topic like "matching Grayson Compensator with Compensators delivered by the silesians".

With other words: If Masada had the Compensator tec at the first travel to masada and used them to today = good chance to get that tec.

If the tec is buried somewere in a database unused = very low chance to get the data.
I wouldn't be surprised very if Masada had managed to steal that tech -- they had people deeply buried in various parts of Grayson government and it'd be surprising if they didn't have any in shipbuilding or the military. So if they'd wanted to steal it they probably could have.

Though remember that even as late as when Honor arrived in Yeltsin the Grayson compensators were less effective than those of the wider galaxy. They had more development potential - but at their current state of development they weren't as good. So while Masada would definitely need compensator technology they don't have to steal Grayson's in particular for their military to remain competitive. (And make no mistake, failing to match Grayson's acquisition of wedge and compensator tech would put Masada's navy at a fatal disadvantage)

Now stealing it from Grayson might still have been their approach; since they were even more isolated than Grayson they might not have had any other source.

OTOH Masada is also more ruthless so they might have gotten the tech through means Grayson wouldn't stoop to. (Say killing off the entire crew of a visiting freighter in order to steal its tech and reverse engineer it for military purposes). Without knowing we don't know Masada is a potential source of the tech. Though if they are they're still under pretty tight Manticoran control; so going after the tech there is still potentially risky. But more importantly the Grayson compensator still took a couple of years of research from Manticore before realizing even the first improvements. Assuming your researchers were as good and Manticore's you'd still be almost 20 years behind the curve. If possible you'd want to get your hands on something more recent so you don't have to redo 2 decades of R&D
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