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Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)

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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by Garth 2   » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:27 am

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Theemile wrote:
RustyDust wrote:Hello everyone,

I just got around to registering. I've been a fan of the Honorverse books for around six years now. I devoured them in one two-month long mega-readathon, up to the available volumes.

I am a rabid fan, yet after three or four complete read-thrus of the complete books, spin-offs, anthologies, some online available stories, etc I have detected a few inconsistencies in the books.

I'd like to pose them as questions, rather than assuming I am right about it. So, without further ado:

1) Temporal inconsistency: In "The Promised Land" and "Ruthless" we come to see the story of Judith and Michael Winton. In this story Michael Winton's role first is that of quasi-ambassador to Massada, plus his help in gettting Judith and the refugee women to Manticore.
But in "Ruthless" Michael's role is that of the patsy to embarass his sister, Queen Elizabeth, so that the newly formed alliance contract with Grayson should become invalid and useless. This is pretty much the reason for the whole shenanigans of the second story.

Problem: this story plays 2-3 years after "The Promised Land", which was set in 1892 A.D., so it should play around 1894-1895. Unluckily for the temporal consistency, there was no contract of alliance with Grayson at that time. That is dealt with in the novel "Honor of the Queen", which is set in 1903 A.D., thus at least 8 years AFTER "Ruthless". Thus, the whole premise for the story becomes invalid. Unluckily it is also not possible to just rejigger the whole stories of the escape from Massada by a few years forward, as Michael would then have been a few years older, and his family and relatives would also have been older as well. But the story explicitly points to the specific ages of Michael's relatives.

A) Did anyone notice this? And
B) How would you propose to solve this conundrum in future editions of the books (should there be re-edited versions in the pipeline)?

2) In "Honor Among Enemies" during the last few chapters, the destroyer Hawkwing tears off in its 'unscheduled' exercise, while Artemis and the convoy the destroyer is guarding are in a grav-wave at several thousand gravities acceleration. Here comes the inconsistency:
Mr Weber specifically explained multiple times that missile combat in hyper is completely impossible as absolutely NO impeller wedge can form inside a grav-wave in hyper-space.
Thus there could also NEVER be sidewalls in H-space, as there would be no wedge floor and roof to anchor the sidewalls to.
But the description of the faked action of the destroyer includes multiple inconsistencies: the destroyer bringing up sidewalls before haring off, then multiple missile waves in rapid fire mode being fired at an imaginary target that Artemis could not detect,all while in H-space.

Is this an inconsistency, or did I miss info about alterations to sidewall generators that work off the Warshawski sails? Or missiles that work in H-space by employing Warshawski sails as propulsion?

3) How is any kind of communication possible inside H-space among ships of a convoy? As any kind of emmissions used for communications are basically light-speed or slower, but the ships themselves are travelling in a compressed H-space bubble at speeds effectively greater than the speed of light, anyone at the front of such a convoy could never recieve ANY kind of transmission from anyone behind them in the convoy.

4) How are pinnaces or shuttles able to travel between ships in a convoy in H-space as they can not generate warshawski sails themselves. As they leave the field of the Warshawski sails of the ship that is carrying them they should immediately be slower than the ships they just took off from, as these ships are under continuous acceleration. As pinnaces and shuttles are ONLY able to generate wedges, but not warshawksis they should not be able to travel inside a grav-wave at all by themselves. As such, transfer from one ship to another inside a grav-wave by pinnace or shuttle should be impossible.

Again, did I miss somethig there?


Hello RustyDust, Welcome to the Forum, as it's customary here: Sidle up to the bar and the first virtual Old Tilman's on us.

After that, My stock is running low, so If you find a local vendor, please let me know.

Let me handle a few things...

#2) this has been brought up before. I believe it was authorial error - It was meant to be set in Hyperspace between grav waves, not a grav wave itself. It's been awhile since I read the book. It might have been set in a Rift - a volume of space that a rogue wave travels. The Rogue waves move across these voids randomly, so Rifts are usually avoided unless they are in major trade paths, which one (the Sellkar?) does between Andermani and Silesian Space. When the wave isn't there, the Rifts are just like normal Hyper space, and are traversed via wedges. The problem is the wave can suddenly shift positions, so the rifts are traveled at a fairly low speed, so sensors will give you enough warning to shift to sails if the wave suddenly comes your way.

At that time, sidewalls required wedges to be stitched to and there has never been a hyperspace missile - It would require Alpha nodes to make the sails, and thus be the size of a small Dispatch boat, and as expensive to boot.

3) When you are in Hyper, each Band acts like a version of normal space - with a local light speed and similar physics rules. You just need the hyper generator to move between them - the generator is in standby mode when you are moving in a hyperband. The big difference is the grav waves that run through the bands. Light and radio still work the same, so you could still talk via radio and laser beam - you would just need to adjust for any gravity distortion of the signal - which would be easy with a digital signal.

4) same as #3 - when you are in "normal" hyper space, the physics rules are similiar enough that any thing you can do in normal space, you can do in Hyper space. The partical count is significantly higher, so I would assume the radiation count is also - so no sunbathing without SPF 9x10^8, and all swim trunks should be lead lined.

In an Grav wave, however, nothing can exist without Sails, so small craft, missiles or EVA is impossible, but in the spaces between waves (which is >90% of Hyper space) the normal rules apply.

I strongly suggest checking the pearls if you havn't, Joe Buckley (the one who launched a thousand deaths) has collected some of David's wisdom from conversations online.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/series/Harrington/


2 - either the tac crew on the liner got it wrong and assumed that Hawkwing had deployed missile defence/decoys or they were between gravity waves under impeller (which makes the story work)

4 - Pinnace etc. can use Impeller whilst in H-Space as long as they aren't in a Gravity wave, as discussed in the novels a small vessel can reach a given speed faster, so they can build on the launching ships velocity to get where they are needed - see In Enemy Hands were Honor visits Alasdair for his birthday

1 - The easiest answer is that "Ruthless" actually happens later and the dates are wrong
or
SKM and Grayson were negotiating for along time, and the Ramsbottoms are referencing draft treats as they're objective was to shift the SKM foreign policy to stop wasting resources on "primitive" societies
or
There were multiple treats between the SKM and Graysons created, and that is what the Ramsbottoms were targeting

As for the "SKM didn't help the Graysons" during the pre-wormhole period/pre-PRH threat period, there is two possible reasons for that the SKM astro information might indicate that the system was un-inhabitable and/or uninhabited, and no one bother to double check it until a Grayson ship turned up somewhere else, given the slow data transfer speeds (also don't forget that historically the SKM hasn't it self been in the colonisation/survey business as its had no need)
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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by tlb   » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:39 am

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Garth 2 wrote:As for the "SKM didn't help the Graysons" during the pre-wormhole period/pre-PRH threat period, there is two possible reasons for that the SKM astro information might indicate that the system was un-inhabitable and/or uninhabited, and no one bother to double check it until a Grayson ship turned up somewhere else, given the slow data transfer speeds (also don't forget that historically the SKM hasn't it self been in the colonisation/survey business as its had no need)

I am fairly certain that an occasional merchant ship would visit prior to the PRH threat, otherwise the Graysons would not know that they needed to develop a compensator. Given the isolationist elements in Manticore's politics, they might simply have been disinclined to help before the military need arose.
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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by Theemile   » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:37 am

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tlb wrote:
Garth 2 wrote:As for the "SKM didn't help the Graysons" during the pre-wormhole period/pre-PRH threat period, there is two possible reasons for that the SKM astro information might indicate that the system was un-inhabitable and/or uninhabited, and no one bother to double check it until a Grayson ship turned up somewhere else, given the slow data transfer speeds (also don't forget that historically the SKM hasn't it self been in the colonisation/survey business as its had no need)

I am fairly certain that an occasional merchant ship would visit prior to the PRH threat, otherwise the Graysons would not know that they needed to develop a compensator. Given the isolationist elements in Manticore's politics, they might simply have been disinclined to help before the military need arose.


That what I figured as well, but the Modern Graysons treat the Manticorians like newfound friends and saviors, not the "isolationist jerks that ignored us until it was convenient to them" that it appears that Manticore was.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by tlb   » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:27 am

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Garth 2 wrote:As for the "SKM didn't help the Graysons" during the pre-wormhole period/pre-PRH threat period, there is two possible reasons for that the SKM astro information might indicate that the system was un-inhabitable and/or uninhabited, and no one bother to double check it until a Grayson ship turned up somewhere else, given the slow data transfer speeds (also don't forget that historically the SKM hasn't it self been in the colonisation/survey business as its had no need)

tlb wrote:I am fairly certain that an occasional merchant ship would visit prior to the PRH threat, otherwise the Graysons would not know that they needed to develop a compensator. Given the isolationist elements in Manticore's politics, they might simply have been disinclined to help before the military need arose.

Theemile wrote:That what I figured as well, but the Modern Graysons treat the Manticorians like newfound friends and saviors, not the "isolationist jerks that ignored us until it was convenient to them" that it appears that Manticore was.

I just remembered the clincher: The Protector was educated off-world before the events of HotQ.
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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by Theemile   » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:40 am

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Garth 2 wrote:As for the "SKM didn't help the Graysons" during the pre-wormhole period/pre-PRH threat period, there is two possible reasons for that the SKM astro information might indicate that the system was un-inhabitable and/or uninhabited, and no one bother to double check it until a Grayson ship turned up somewhere else, given the slow data transfer speeds (also don't forget that historically the SKM hasn't it self been in the colonisation/survey business as its had no need)

tlb wrote:I am fairly certain that an occasional merchant ship would visit prior to the PRH threat, otherwise the Graysons would not know that they needed to develop a compensator. Given the isolationist elements in Manticore's politics, they might simply have been disinclined to help before the military need arose.

Theemile wrote:That what I figured as well, but the Modern Graysons treat the Manticorians like newfound friends and saviors, not the "isolationist jerks that ignored us until it was convenient to them" that it appears that Manticore was.

tlb wrote:I just remembered the clincher: The Protector was educated off-world before the events of HotQ.


Right - there had to be relations with Manticore and other worlds for decades - if not centuries. So why did Manticore choose until NOW to help Grayson?

On the flip side - why is Grayson just now realizing it's attitude toward females is parochial? I can understand that the few foreign freigters that showed up each year probably didn't flaunt their females, but entertainment and knowledge seems to be sent around universally in the Honorverse - if no one tried to import electronic information onto Grayson, there had to be the Church or Government deliberately keeping it's people in the dark. Manticore has their merchant marine coming back with copies of patents from across the universe, How can Grayson not be able to purchase the equivalent of PC magazine and Encarta, let alone a DVD series of Friends 2831pd, Big Brother, the New Madrid House Saga Chronicles, and Nat Geo Wild Specials? And if Benjamin can go to Harvard - why can't Grayson have some scholarships and send the brightest 5 students each year to learn technology?

It's just hard to believe that you are a little connected, without actively trying to avoid all the things that should be easy to get.

Maybe it's a feature of the society I live in, but as a teenager I found enough details to manufacture an atom bomb in my local public library (located in a double wide trailer) in the era before the internet. Not that I personally had the resources to manufacture the Cyclotron whose designs I found, or manufacture the parts required for the device; but looking hard enough - it was all there. I later went to college with Chinese "Grad students" who spent every spare moment in the Thesis stacks at the college library photocopying every scrap they could find to send "home" (and everyone knew it...). Knowledge was EVERYWHERE, you just had to look for it. And now, we have the internet.... (mixed blessing and a curse...)

I just can't believe that a freighter crew from Grayson on shore leave on a distant planet wouldn't try to grab a random trade magazine - or even a Popular Mechanics analogue, let alone try to buy a college level school book at a bookstore, just to bring technology home and sell it to a technology firm to develop. OR that a Manticorian trader wouldn't try to sell a DVD player and some old entertainment titles at 10x the normal price to someone on the Grayson docks.

It's just hard to believe that you can be only a very, very little connected, yet still be connected to the outer Universe in any way. You have to actively work to be in that situation.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by Puidwen   » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:26 am

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Does Torch have a constitution? The Shadow of Saganami says yes. Yet in another book W.E.B. Du Havel says the made a point of not having one.
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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:28 am

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Puidwen wrote:Does Torch have a constitution? The Shadow of Saganami says yes. Yet in another book W.E.B. Du Havel says the made a point of not having one.

You need to point us to book and chapter for a chance of knowing what you mean, particularly for the Du Havel point that you mention.

In Crown of Slaves (chapter 41), Du Havel is talking about forming a constitutional monarchy like Great Britain's (which does not have a written constitution). In Torch of Freedom (chapter 14), there is mention that the constitution allows every ex-slave the right to emigrate.

As a guess, I would expect that Torch does have a written one because a new found state cannot rely on precedent.
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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by saber964   » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:24 pm

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tlb wrote:
Puidwen wrote:Does Torch have a constitution? The Shadow of Saganami says yes. Yet in another book W.E.B. Du Havel says the made a point of not having one.

You need to point us to book and chapter for a chance of knowing what you mean, particularly for the Du Havel point that you mention.

In Crown of Slaves (chapter 41), Du Havel is talking about forming a constitutional monarchy like Great Britain's (which does not have a written constitution). In Torch of Freedom (chapter 14), there is mention that the constitution allows every ex-slave the right to emigrate.

As a guess, I would expect that Torch does have a written one because a new found state cannot rely on precedent.

Torch probably has a temporary one much like the U.S. Articles of Confederation which was superseded by the U.S.Constitution in 1789.
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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by tlb   » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:52 am

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Puidwen wrote:Does Torch have a constitution? The Shadow of Saganami says yes. Yet in another book W.E.B. Du Havel says the made a point of not having one.

tlb wrote:You need to point us to book and chapter for a chance of knowing what you mean, particularly for the Du Havel point that you mention.

In Crown of Slaves (chapter 41), Du Havel is talking about forming a constitutional monarchy like Great Britain's (which does not have a written constitution). In Torch of Freedom (chapter 14), there is mention that the constitution allows every ex-slave the right to emigrate.

As a guess, I would expect that Torch does have a written one because a new found state cannot rely on precedent.

saber964 wrote:Torch probably has a temporary one much like the U.S. Articles of Confederation which was superseded by the U.S.Constitution in 1789.

Why do you think that? The Articles of Confederation proved deficient in governing a collection of semi-independent states, but Torch is a single entity. Maybe what Torch has will need to be amended, but there is no reason to start with a throw-away constitution that I can see.
Last edited by tlb on Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incongruencies in the books (yet I still love them)
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:16 pm

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tlb wrote:(snippage)

In Crown of Slaves (chapter 41), Du Havel is talking about forming a constitutional monarchy like Great Britain's (which does not have a written constitution). In Torch of Freedom (chapter 14), there is mention that the constitution allows every ex-slave the right to emigrate.

As a guess, I would expect that Torch does have a written one because a new found state cannot rely on precedent.


Doesn't Her Mousyness have the expressed constitutional power to summarily execute or exile one person each year? I remember she threatened any body who protested her naming Hugh to the "Ministry of the Posterior" when she joined the mass pilgrimage to Manticore when Anton and Victor went there after they stopped at Haven on their escape from Mesa.
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