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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:51 am

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Dilandu wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Actually, many armed citizens are far, far more profecient with a firearm than the police. You should witness a bunch of American rednecks participating in Practical Pistol, Prsctical Rifle and Practical Shotgun matches.


They may be excellent shooters against something that do not trying to shoot back. But the ability to shoot more or less straight & not run away during actual firefight required more than just shooting skills. And if you want to actually hit JUST the bad guy - and not "he hit about twenty panicked bystander trying to disable the shooter" - it required even more skills.



Why would you presume that police officers have that skill when armed citizens do not?
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:01 am

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Daryl wrote:Fly you said.
My personal record is putting a bullet throughthe spine of a running elk at 950 meters. I confess that I was aiming for the heart and I hit the spine right in front of the pelvis. Perhaps it wasn't such an impressive shot?


I find that to be curious for several reasons. You would have to be super humanly capable to calculate the lead on a moving target at that range. Even through a good hunting scope a beast at that range would be not much more than a cartoon dot. A sniper scope on a Barrett or similar might be precise enough, and you would need a heavy calibre to effect a kill at that range anyway.
My record is being accredited a 70% kill rate on human sized targets at 500 metres, using a Steyr AUG bullpup 223. I once killed a kangaroo at 500 metres with an iron sighted 303, but freely admit that was a fluke, fired mainly to get them off the crop and was astonished when the boomer dropped.



Svorksky scope with a "Christmas Tree" recticle to compensate for windage and elevation.

I also cheated.

I didn't have a laser range finder as there were none on the civilian market at that time that were effective at that range. The kid kneeling behind me who was supposed to spot my first shot for me so I could adjust my range estimation was knocked over by the back blast from the muzzle brake. I really put my shoulder into it for the second shot so I could spot my own hit. The observed point of impact on the recticle became my aim point for my third shot.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Michael Everett   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:21 am

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Daryl wrote:I can't follow your logic Michael.

Several reasons.
1 - Because if anyone in a city is seen with anything other than a small pistol, everyone who spots them will know that they should call the cops.
2 - Ammo. A six-shot small pistol will give a maximum of six attempts to kill people before reloading is required. If the pistol is a model that has to be loaded one bullet at a time, this makes reloading even longer, thus giving a better chance for a takedown.
3 - Compensation. The old joke goes that the size of the gun is inversely proportional to the size of the... well, you get it. This is why some Americans go for the biggest gun that they can get, it's to make up (in their eyes) for having a sausage so small that you need tweezers and a magnifying glass to find it. Take away their ability to compensate with guns and they'll go for something else, such as pimp-clothing or pimped-out cars.
It's also hard to pull off a me-macho-man-see-me-gun pose with a tiny pistol. As such, those who do such poses will switch to swords and so on which are far more range-limited, thus reducing their effective area of threat should they decide to go nuts.

They can still kill with pistols, but the range is shorter than rifles and things like wooden partitions can help protect against said shooters while pistol wounds generally tend to be smaller than rifle wounds.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:22 am

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Donnachaidh wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:There have been plenty of mass shootings stopped by armed citizens to confirm that they can be and often are effective.


Please provide examples.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Also, the Walmart shooting occurred in El Paso where Beta Beto O'Rourke won 75% of the vote against Senator Ted Cruz.
Many of the shoppers were Mexican nationals who were just visiting.


What's your point? Shouldn't people be able to go shopping without the threat of death regardless of they voted for? Or whether or not they are a citizen?



There are plenty of incidents. This isn't the best source but the first I found.

https://www.conservapedia.com/Mass_shoo ... d_citizens

And of course no such list would be complete without mentioning the University of Texas Clock Tower Massacre.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/20 ... sad-ayoob/

Just an explanation, Massad Ayoob is one of the absolute best police firearms trainers in the US and expert witness.

One final note.

Who are the people who are intentionally inciting violence?

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/t ... eplorables
Last edited by TFLYTSNBN on Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by noblehunter   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:53 am

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Daryl wrote:I can't follow your logic Michael. Having used a wide variety of firearms my opinion is that a six shot 22 pistol is only of use for killing one species, humans. Thus why have it at all?
Hand guns are dangerous for a number of reasons. Their small axis makes it too easy to turn it towards yourself by accident, try that with a shotgun or full sized rifle.
Hand guns are inaccurate. I practiced a lot but am much more accurate with a long arm rifle.
A hand gun has the capacity to escalate a situation when suddenly displayed. If I have a gun and someone pulls out a gun I'll shoot immediately before they can. If I have a gun and see someone else with a long arm I'll talk.
Hand guns are more likely to kill without immediately stopping an attacker, being less powerful.

I grew up in the Australian bush where we had the 8 deadliest snakes, wild pigs, and dingo packs to contend with. But a bolt action 303 rifle sufficed. Mind you, further north in our state we have salt water crocodiles and wild water buffalo so I'd want a heavier rifle there. Still no need for an automatic (or semi auto) though.


I assume Australia's wild pig problem is comparable to North America's. That is: intractable, expensive, but neither dangerous (with a modicum of caution and an awareness that boar spears had a crossbar for a reason) nor solvable with firepower alone.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:52 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Why would you presume that police officers have that skill when armed citizens do not?


I do not "presume": I conclude that it's generally more possible.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Donnachaidh   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:08 pm

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The link you provide has 23 mass shooting have been stopped by armed citizens in the last 22 years. According to CBS there have been 255 mass shootings in 2019 (as of August 5, 2019 9:34 PM; mass shooting defined as "any incident in which at least four people were shot, excluding the shooter"). That is less than 10% of the shootings of this year alone.


TFLYTSNBN wrote:There are plenty of incidents. This isn't the best source but the first I found.

https://www.conservapedia.com/Mass_shoo ... d_citizens

And of course no such list would be complete without mentioning the University of Texas Clock Tower Massacre.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/20 ... sad-ayoob/

Just an explanation, Massad Ayoob is one of the absolute best police firearms trainers in the US and expert witness.


That's a link about a movie. Not relevant.

What is relevant is the theory in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZkFtTQjF5A

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
One final note.

Who are the people who are intentionally inciting violence?

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/t ... eplorables
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:51 pm

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Donnachaidh wrote:The link you provide has 23 mass shooting have been stopped by armed citizens in the last 22 years. According to CBS there have been 255 mass shootings in 2019 (as of August 5, 2019 9:34 PM; mass shooting defined as "any incident in which at least four people were shot, excluding the shooter"). That is less than 10% of the shootings of this year alone.


Er, your calculations aren't exactly representative. While I generally agree with your conclusions, it is not correct to compare "mass shooting stopped by armed citizens" with "all mass shootings". Because quite a lot of them happens where & when there were no armed citizens around.

The correct comparison would be to extract the mass shootings where armed citizens WERE presented, and compare how many of them were actually stopped by them.

P.S. But I think we could safely say that the percentage would still be extremely small.

P.P.S. On the other hands, TWO HUNDREDS AND TWENTY-FIVE MASS SHOOTING in a single year... it's horrifying.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:30 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Donnachaidh wrote:The link you provide has 23 mass shooting have been stopped by armed citizens in the last 22 years. According to CBS there have been 255 mass shootings in 2019 (as of August 5, 2019 9:34 PM; mass shooting defined as "any incident in which at least four people were shot, excluding the shooter"). That is less than 10% of the shootings of this year alone.


Er, your calculations aren't exactly representative. While I generally agree with your conclusions, it is not correct to compare "mass shooting stopped by armed citizens" with "all mass shootings". Because quite a lot of them happens where & when there were no armed citizens around.

The correct comparison would be to extract the mass shootings where armed citizens WERE presented, and compare how many of them were actually stopped by them.

P.S. But I think we could safely say that the percentage would still be extremely small.

P.P.S. On the other hands, TWO HUNDREDS AND TWENTY-FIVE MASS SHOOTING in a single year... it's horrifying.


The vast majority of "mass shootings" under this expansive definition are either family massacre / suicides (usually committed by husbands or fathers) or gang bangers (almost always African-American or Hispanic) shooting up their rivals in the 'hood.

The Dayton "mass shooting" appears to be a case of the perp targeting his sister, her boyfriend, and his own friend before shooting others. This could bean attempt to make it appear that targeted murders were random and thus more difficult to solve. I would remind people of the Beltway Sniper who was killing many people to coverup theintentional murder of his wife.

Incidents in which someone targets multiple, randomly selected victims remain relatively rare.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:32 am

TFLYTSNBN
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Donnachaidh wrote:The link you provide has 23 mass shooting have been stopped by armed citizens in the last 22 years. According to CBS there have been 255 mass shootings in 2019 (as of August 5, 2019 9:34 PM; mass shooting defined as "any incident in which at least four people were shot, excluding the shooter"). That is less than 10% of the shootings of this year alone.


TFLYTSNBN wrote:There are plenty of incidents. This isn't the best source but the first I found.

https://www.conservapedia.com/Mass_shoo ... d_citizens

And of course no such list would be complete without mentioning the University of Texas Clock Tower Massacre.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/20 ... sad-ayoob/

Just an explanation, Massad Ayoob is one of the absolute best police firearms trainers in the US and expert witness.


That's a link about a movie. Not relevant.

What is relevant is the theory in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZkFtTQjF5A

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
One final note.

Who are the people who are intentionally inciting violence?

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/t ... eplorables



The movie is very relevant.
It illustrates the climate of hate directed at white conservatives.
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