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How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?

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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:50 pm

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Theemile wrote:Ah, but the SKM has grown from 4 planets to 6 planets between 1916 and 1919, and changed to the SEM with the integration of first 16 planets, then 34 new planets, all before 1923, and may have as many as 20 former Havenite worlds choose to join in the next couple of years. All while it still has the same sized navy as if did in 1900.

Also, the SEM has not replaced San Martin's deceased navy, nor has it replaced the outdated self defense forces of the Talbot forces. Also the SEM retired the 1/2 of the Silesian navy it inherited, and not replaced it.

So the SEM has a much larger tax base than it did in 1900, and one which is also growing at a massive pace, yet has a smaller, more efficient navy than the constituent parts did in 1900.

So I would say some growth in the proper sectors if the fleet are still in order, but the fleet will still be smaller than the constituent parts in the end, and more focused on smaller and midsized units than today.


I would expect to find nodal forces with two to six battle squadrons in Silesia, and Talbot, San Martin, Beowulf, with more in Home Fleet. Maybe one in Marsh. Then battlecruisers (non-pod laying), heavy and light cruisers, and destroyers distributed as needed. Additional destroyers for commerce protection and pirate hunting. Heavier warships might be needed for escorts and pirate hunting if a significant part of the SLN goes rogue. Prevention of warlordism and buccaneering among the Verge. And keeping an eye out for those mystery ships that raided the MBS and Grayson. There may be room for coordination with the Andies in areas of mutual interest. The Graysons may continue their cooperation with the SEM, including weapons development and ship design.

What are things like on the far side (from Manticore) of the Havenites? Will they have to worry about piracy and warlords?
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:57 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Yes, we have seen Mk16 pods.

Manticore developed the "flat pack" pods so that Mk16, Mk23, and Apollo (basically all the fusion powered variants) so that SD(p) could use the same rails and handling equipment.

I would presume that older SD(p)s that used capacitor, single-drive missiles, and/or older towed pods are still around and and in use for LERM and ERM missiles.


Makes sense that the fusion powered missiles would all fit into variants of the same basic pod, varying in the number and size of missile cells in the pod.IIRC, fourteen MK-16s, ten Mk-23s (no -E variants) for non-Apollo ships, and 8 MK 23s plus a MK-23E for Apollo. I would expect that the older SD(P) would be able to carry the new pods, unless they couldn't jump start the pod's fusion plants.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:33 am

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Fox2! wrote:Makes sense that the fusion powered missiles would all fit into variants of the same basic pod, varying in the number and size of missile cells in the pod.IIRC, fourteen MK-16s, ten Mk-23s (no -E variants) for non-Apollo ships, and 8 MK 23s plus a MK-23E for Apollo. I would expect that the older SD(P) would be able to carry the new pods, unless they couldn't jump start the pod's fusion plants.


1) I'm not sure when the "flat-pack" pods were introduced. The information is out there, but long posts are beyond my current capabilities. :( Whether the 'Buttercup' era pods are standardized or not us a moot point.

2) Older SD(p) (capacitor) pods aren't compatible with Fusion pods. They're probably not compatible with older tractored pods either.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:44 am

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Fox2! wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
Yes, we have seen Mk16 pods.

Manticore developed the "flat pack" pods so that Mk16, Mk23, and Apollo (basically all the fusion powered variants) so that SD(p) could use the same rails and handling equipment.

I would presume that older SD(p)s that used capacitor, single-drive missiles, and/or older towed pods are still around and and in use for LERM and ERM missiles.


Makes sense that the fusion powered missiles would all fit into variants of the same basic pod, varying in the number and size of missile cells in the pod.IIRC, fourteen MK-16s, ten Mk-23s (no -E variants) for non-Apollo ships, and 8 MK 23s plus a MK-23E for Apollo. I would expect that the older SD(P) would be able to carry the new pods, unless they couldn't jump start the pod's fusion plants.


All the RMN SD(P)s were designed to fire the fusion missile pods, they were already in the pipeline, but I believe the Medusas can only fire mk41s from their tubes ( which doesn't make sense - how were they prescient on one, but not the other?)

Early Andy podlayers are limited to capicitor pods. That probably is only true of the initial pod layers built before the war, as war builds could fire Apollo pods.

The same is probably true of Havenite pod layers, but no word has been given.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by kzt   » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:47 am

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Weird Harold wrote:2) Older SD(p) (capacitor) pods aren't compatible with Fusion pods. They're probably not compatible with older tractored pods either.

I am not sure that is true. The capacitors are plasma capacitors. Which means they are filled with the same stuff you use to start up a Honorverse fusion reactor. Which probably means the pod bay has all the plumbing needed, you just need to modify the fittings.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:41 pm

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Fox2! wrote:Should have been "Have we seen Mk 16 pods of any variant?"
As was already mentioned Manticore's Agamemnon-class BC(P)s were loaded with Mk16 pods all through Honor's deep raids during the 2nd war.

Offhand though I can't recall an instance of a non-pod ship towing Mk16 pods; but there shouldn't be any reason why they couldn't. Though even the pods the ammo ship HMS Vocano deployed for Terekhov's scratch force at Monica were apparently Mk23s (There were 10 "Capital missiles of the Royal Manticoran Navy" per pod"; though it doesn't explicitly say they're fusion powered nor give their Mk number so I guess there's an outside chance they're old capacitor powered Mk41s)

But the Mk16 carrying variant of the standard flat-pack pod for xx(P) ships should have the same capability to be towed around and fired by non-podlaying ships as the Mk23 carrying pod. (Now there are also longer endurance system defense pods for Mk23s; and not just for the new 4 drive E/F versions. I doubt Manticore bothered to manufacture longer endurance system defense pods configured for Mk16s)
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:47 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Fox2! wrote:Should have been "Have we seen Mk 16 pods of any variant?"
As was already mentioned Manticore's Agamemnon-class BC(P)s were loaded with Mk16 pods all through Honor's deep raids during the 2nd war.

Offhand though I can't recall an instance of a non-pod ship towing Mk16 pods; but there shouldn't be any reason why they couldn't. Though even the pods the ammo ship HMS Vocano deployed for Terekhov's scratch force at Monica were apparently Mk23s (There were 10 "Capital missiles of the Royal Manticoran Navy" per pod"; though it doesn't explicitly say they're fusion powered nor give their Mk number so I guess there's an outside chance they're old capacitor powered Mk41s)

But the Mk16 carrying variant of the standard flat-pack pod for xx(P) ships should have the same capability to be towed around and fired by non-podlaying ships as the Mk23 carrying pod. (Now there are also longer endurance system defense pods for Mk23s; and not just for the new 4 drive E/F versions. I doubt Manticore bothered to manufacture longer endurance system defense pods configured for Mk16s)


In Uncompromising Honor, Commodore Leesem's force at the Ajay/Stein wormhole only used mk16 pods both to save mk23s for when they were really needed and to withhold the knowledge of the 3 stage mk23 from the SLN. Their support ship carried both types in its holds.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by Fox2!   » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:07 pm

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Theemile wrote:
In Uncompromising Honor, Commodore Leesem's force at the Ajay/Stein wormhole only used mk16 pods both to save mk23s for when they were really needed and to withhold the knowledge of the 3 stage mk23 from the SLN. Their support ship carried both types in its holds.


IIRC, Mike fired Mk 23s at Byng in New Tuscany, to preserve the secrecy of the capability of the Mk 16s.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:12 am

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Fox2! wrote:
Theemile wrote:
In Uncompromising Honor, Commodore Leesem's force at the Ajay/Stein wormhole only used mk16 pods both to save mk23s for when they were really needed and to withhold the knowledge of the 3 stage mk23 from the SLN. Their support ship carried both types in its holds.


IIRC, Mike fired Mk 23s at Byng in New Tuscany, to preserve the secrecy of the capability of the Mk 16s.


I think that case you mentioned was intended to keep the SLN from knowing light and medium units can fire mk16s from tubes. At one point Mike also gave instructions to keep the 3rd drive of the mk23 secret as long as possible - which is in line with Leesem using mk 16 pods, it still keeps the capability of the Sag-C and Roland secret, keeps the mk23's third drive secret, and saves the mk23 for when they really are needed. Leesen specifically mentioned concern for the limited mk23 stocks, not that any Manty missile has a decent supply line when Leesem said that.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the puplic?
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:21 pm

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What might be happening in the design considerations to provide newer warships with some capasity to provide prize crews after the several conversations where the new, lower crew requirement, units were discoverd to not be able to put prize crews on ships or had enough marines to handle some of the things that they ran into.

Yes, the greater automation allowed the RMN to expand the numbers of hulls (with the same numbers of people and skate past some of the challanges of not enough people) but that was in great part driven by the need to build and deploy the newer warfighting variations of differnt classes.

Now they are moving into a period where the SEM is not at open war with anybody excpet the Alignment (which nobody has a handle on) and many of the ships which are going to be tasked with commerce protection appear to be either somewhat under staffed to fulfill that role or are older designs which may or may not be reasonably upgraded in armament.

If they are going to do commerce protection, they are going to need more people to do things like board ships (particlarly multiple at a time) along with the small craft and marines to do the jobs. They are also probably be configured for longer duration "cruising" to give them the ability to spend longer times away from bases and cover more areas in the various redeveloping trade routes. The weapons mixes need adjusting.
One of the difficulties is that nobody knows where the next problems are going to come from. At the moment, there are a lot of SLN ships out there, either as part of the the SL or in SDFs of lots of systems. There are also things like the RF which has already been noticed by at least the SLN and I think RMN as a rising player in the SL.2 scheme of things and nobody has a handle --that we yet know of- of what they have and that the intentions are.
Remember that the SLN was mostly ignoring (or having the information misreprsened and or buried) new weaponry, ships, tactics etc prior to going up against Manticore. We and they don't know what they don't know except that much of what SLN ONI had for information was sadly lacking in depth, and accuracy. That includes on it's own members, and trading partners of it's member worlds.
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