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Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse

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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:37 am

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CaptainPerseus wrote:I've read the Honorverse novels,anthologies, and the House of Steel companion and while doing that my curiosity has been raised about certain topics. So, I wanted to ask some of the questions that have come to mind about those topics and see what everyone might think about them.

First, the topic of Havenite ex-patriots. The two most prominent Havenite ex-patriots in the novels are Alfredo Yu and Warner Caslet, both of whom are essentially living in exile on Grayson and unable to return to Haven because of their actions. Now, Yu defected following the failed attempt by the People's Republic to use Masada as a proxy to conquer Grayson. Caslet defected following Harrington's escape from Cerebrus. I'm assuming both are viewed as traitors to the Republic, but what I'm curious about is: does Eloise Pritchart, as President of the Republic of Haven, have the authority to grant pardons or commute sentences? Could she pardon both of them so they could at least return to Haven to visit their homeland? Or are their factors within the Republic's politics that prevent her from clearing them? And where would Thomas Theisman fall in situation? I kind of think Theisman would be on the side of allowing these two men to return home as Yu was his mentor and Caslet served with him at Barnett. Both men broke with their star nation because of previous regimes (Yu because of the Legislaturalists and Caslet because of the Committe).

Second, we know that Queen Elizabeth II amended the Manticoran Constitution to allow her to use her deceased husband's sperm to impregnate herself with an heir to the throne. But what if we were to fast forward four centuries and it was Honor in that position? What if before he was murdered by Denver Summervale, Paul Tankserley had set aside sperm for whatever reason and for whatever reason it came into Honor's possession? Would she use it to have the child that she and Paul were never able to because he was murdered? How would Hamish and/or the Manticoran public react? How would the Graysons view it if she chose to have a child that way because he was the first love of her life?

Third, the Manticoran Wormhole Junction has seven mapped and explored termini, but of all the termini we've learned the least about is Matapan and the associated Asgard and Midgard Federation regions near it. What lies out there in that area of the galaxy? Is it sparsely settled and populated or are there fully developed worlds with minor navies? We know from On Basilisk Station that Emperor Gustav XI was more concerned with Midgard than Haven in 1900 PD. Can we infer from his concern that Midgard possessed a military that could threaten the Andermani Empire? Asgard was supposedly a military protectorate of Midgard, so maybe it did.

But yeah those are the random idle questions I've had recently about the Honorverse.


Welcome!!

1) Theisman only escaped being scapegoated because he managed to put Apollo out of the fight--I think that was touched on in SVW. Serving senior officers who commanded ships in that timeframe wouldn't have a problem with their actions--but how many of those are actually left?

In addition, consider how the Havenite Congress responded to the renewal of hostilities in WoH--they actually wanted the war to resume, and their hawkish stance was likely reflecting fairly accurately their constituents. The civilians were not seeing their whole families massacred if they failed to win, and aren't likely to let insignificant FACTS interfere with their rightousness. So, until the formation of the GA, rehabilitation steps on too many political toes. After all, it puts the war guilt on Haven, and they all knew it was the evil Manties and their own traitors (like Caslet and Yu) that caused all their military losses. . . . so, no.

2) Whatever reason would legally have to be the intent to have a child with Honor, or you couldn't use it. If he had done so, she would have had a child. As far as bastards inheriting, there was a little scene with some Steadholders needing to be reminded of literally dozens of times that had already happened. Besides, there was still Faith.

3)This was already answered--but consider some of the other regions. The Phoenix Cluster is another region like Matapan, sparsely settled and patroled (the RMN and Erewhon) by outside powers; their independence is nominal, really, but they are another locus of ongoing out-migration from the League. Any region near the end of a wormhole terminus with habitable stars in the vicinity will eventually result in migration. For that matter, it is likely that the Silesian region might start attracting more immigration, once the piracy problem is thoroughly stomped on. The Silesian confederacy didn't have all the stars in the region --the Trianon Combine and Marsh show that there are systems out there that are still independent.

Regarding OBS, remember that Honor considered the Andermani quite capable of seizing Basilisk by force; before the shooting started, they might have been less concerned with not complicating the Mantie resistance to Haven. Looking at the map in the book, the stars closest to the far north might have joined the Alliance more to deter the Andies than to block Haven. The Andies were a lot closer, after all.

Regards,

Rob
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by roseandheather   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:12 pm

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CaptainPerseus wrote:I've read the Honorverse novels,anthologies, and the House of Steel companion and while doing that my curiosity has been raised about certain topics. So, I wanted to ask some of the questions that have come to mind about those topics and see what everyone might think about them.

First, the topic of Havenite ex-patriots. The two most prominent Havenite ex-patriots in the novels are Alfredo Yu and Warner Caslet, both of whom are essentially living in exile on Grayson and unable to return to Haven because of their actions. Now, Yu defected following the failed attempt by the People's Republic to use Masada as a proxy to conquer Grayson. Caslet defected following Harrington's escape from Cerebrus. I'm assuming both are viewed as traitors to the Republic, but what I'm curious about is: does Eloise Pritchart, as President of the Republic of Haven, have the authority to grant pardons or commute sentences? Could she pardon both of them so they could at least return to Haven to visit their homeland? Or are their factors within the Republic's politics that prevent her from clearing them? And where would Thomas Theisman fall in situation? I kind of think Theisman would be on the side of allowing these two men to return home as Yu was his mentor and Caslet served with him at Barnett. Both men broke with their star nation because of previous regimes (Yu because of the Legislaturalists and Caslet because of the Committe).

Second, we know that Queen Elizabeth II amended the Manticoran Constitution to allow her to use her deceased husband's sperm to impregnate herself with an heir to the throne. But what if we were to fast forward four centuries and it was Honor in that position? What if before he was murdered by Denver Summervale, Paul Tankserley had set aside sperm for whatever reason and for whatever reason it came into Honor's possession? Would she use it to have the child that she and Paul were never able to because he was murdered? How would Hamish and/or the Manticoran public react? How would the Graysons view it if she chose to have a child that way because he was the first love of her life?

Third, the Manticoran Wormhole Junction has seven mapped and explored termini, but of all the termini we've learned the least about is Matapan and the associated Asgard and Midgard Federation regions near it. What lies out there in that area of the galaxy? Is it sparsely settled and populated or are there fully developed worlds with minor navies? We know from On Basilisk Station that Emperor Gustav XI was more concerned with Midgard than Haven in 1900 PD. Can we infer from his concern that Midgard possessed a military that could threaten the Andermani Empire? Asgard was supposedly a military protectorate of Midgard, so maybe it did.

But yeah those are the random idle questions I've had recently about the Honorverse.


I can't speak to your latter two questions, but I went into some detail on the plausibility of a pardon for Caslet and Yu specifically in a thread a few years ago, so I'm just going to quote myself here. (And I have fairly good reason to believe that I'm right on this score, though I haven't gotten official confirmation from His Authorness about that.)

But the short version is: yes, as President, she is fully empowered by the Constitution to pardon them. But she can't, and she won't, because of the following:

The short answer is, "no".

If you've spent any time on this board at all, you already know that I am the biggest Haven fangirl in existence. The biggest. I love my Haven - my Athens of the Stars - and my signature is what it is for a reason.

But the answer is still 'no'.

Even if Eloise Pritchart wanted to do it - and I have no doubt at least part of her does - she can't. She can't give Alfredo Yu or Warner Caslet a pardon, because she would be setting a precedent far too dangerous ever to be allowed to exist, and if I were in her place, I wouldn't pardon them, either.

The fact is this: Alfredo and Warner took up arms against a star nation they had been sworn to serve. They turned against that nation, defected to another nation in active hostilities against it, and participated in battle against its military forces as active combatants.

Yes, they did it under incredible duress. Yes, they did it for all the right reasons - every right reason in the whole universe. Yes, had they not done so, they undoubtedly would have perished. And yes, in the end the star nation they betrayed was the better for it - because it was their defection, and the effect those defections had on one Honor Harrington, which laid the groundwork for the ultimate success - the formation of the Grand Alliance. Yes, they are good men, honorable men, worthy men, in all the ways that matter.

But they still took up arms against the star nation they had sworn to serve. And under no circumstances, no matter how badly she might want to, could Eloise Pritchart ever pardon that. Because it would open the door for other men and women - people who are not so good, who were not under that kind of duress, who are not that honorable or well-intentioned - to step through that door of betrayal, and implies that she sanctions what they did.

And as the President of the Republic - in many ways, I think, the true living symbol of that Republic, the embodiment of its rebirth and the hope of its future, their Lady Liberty made flesh - she cannot, under any circumstances, sanction what is in truth the definition of treason. It is absolutely impossible. She can't do it as the President of the Republic of Haven, and she can't do it as Eloise Pritchart. Because after everything she has given, everything she has lost, everything she has sacrificed in the crucible of Haven's rebirth, the very last thing in the universe she can do as Haven's guiding light is pardon the men who turned against her.

They can't ever go home again. They knew the price they would pay, and they chose to pay it. And because they did, the nation they tried so hard to love blossomed once again from the ashes of its funeral pyre. In a very real way, Alfredo Yu and Warner Caslet gave their lives for their nation as much as Javier Giscard and Joanna Hall.

And I think, in the end, they would do it all over again.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:41 pm

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roseandheather wrote:I can't speak to your latter two questions, but I went into some detail on the plausibility of a pardon for Caslet and Yu specifically in a thread a few years ago, so I'm just going to quote myself here. (And I have fairly good reason to believe that I'm right on this score, though I haven't gotten official confirmation from His Authorness about that.)

But the short version is: yes, as President, she is fully empowered by the Constitution to pardon them.

Do we know if Admiral Parnell would require a pardon before he could come home? He was imprisoned by the Peoples Republic and went to exile in the Solarian League, so never fought against Haven; but did blacken its reputation.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by Fox2!   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:30 pm

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tlb wrote:Do we know if Admiral Parnell would require a pardon before he could come home? He was imprisoned by the Peoples Republic and went to exile in the Solarian League, so never fought against Haven; but did blacken its reputation.


I am sure that there would be those who would claim his testimony about the behavior of the PRH to various bodies in and out of the League constituted giving aid and comfort to the enemy, the Star Kingdom of Manticore and its allies.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by roseandheather   » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:54 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
tlb wrote:Do we know if Admiral Parnell would require a pardon before he could come home? He was imprisoned by the Peoples Republic and went to exile in the Solarian League, so never fought against Haven; but did blacken its reputation.


I am sure that there would be those who would claim his testimony about the behavior of the PRH to various bodies in and out of the League constituted giving aid and comfort to the enemy, the Star Kingdom of Manticore and its allies.


There would be those, you're right about that - but I would argue that Parnell is in a different category - he never even went to Manticore (or Grayson), and certainly never fought for the Manticoran Alliance the way Caslet and Yu did.

However, I think that Eloise would put a firm moratorium on the question of pardons for pre-Theisman Coup actions of any kind because the issue is so thorny. If she was to pardon anybody, it would almost certainly be people like Parnell and Longmont, not those like Yu and Caslet who joined the Grayson military and Protector's Own. But as I said, I don't think she will, because it's a wasps' nest I think she'd prefer to leave undisturbed.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by stewart   » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:55 pm

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cthia wrote:Yes! Welcome to the forums!

:oops:H GOLLY GEE. Do pardon my manners. Thanks for taking up the slack, Theemile. I think we've finally restocked on virtual Old Tilmans, since the junctions are reopened. If you've taken a liking to liquids filtered from a horse, that is. If not, we can just slip a virtual cocoa on Honor's tab. She'll never catch it amongst all the other real expenditures.

BTW, I don't recall our defectors interacting anywhere in storyline with their old navy, but they must have. Anyone else recall?


----------------

At least the "after action" discussion following Fillereta's demise showed a very cordial interaction between Alfredo and Tom Theisman; Granted they were both on Manticore and in an unofficial setting, but it appears no ill will between these two.

-- Stewart
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:48 pm

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stewart wrote:
cthia wrote:Yes! Welcome to the forums!

:oops:H GOLLY GEE. Do pardon my manners. Thanks for taking up the slack, Theemile. I think we've finally restocked on virtual Old Tilmans, since the junctions are reopened. If you've taken a liking to liquids filtered from a horse, that is. If not, we can just slip a virtual cocoa on Honor's tab. She'll never catch it amongst all the other real expenditures.

BTW, I don't recall our defectors interacting anywhere in storyline with their old navy, but they must have. Anyone else recall?


----------------

At least the "after action" discussion following Fillereta's demise showed a very cordial interaction between Alfredo and Tom Theisman; Granted they were both on Manticore and in an unofficial setting, but it appears no ill will between these two.

-- Stewart


Uh, you might say that. Alfredo Wu is perhaps the person Tom Theisman most respects in the entire galaxy. He is, in fact, for various reasons (which I may get around to explaining to you down the road) the reason Theisman restored the Republic.

As for a pardon for Wu or Caslett, neither of them has any intention of putting Eloise in the position of having to issue any pardons. Which doesn't mean that they can never again visit Haven. They are now citizens of other, allied star nations, and in the treaty between the SKM and the RoH, Beth demanded (with a little nudge-nudge, wink-wink from Eloise) a clause recognizing the adopted citizenship of expatriates from either star nation to the other (there were none from the SKM to the PRH, of course) and granting them immunity for any "crimes" they might have against their previous star nation after they acquired their new citizenship. Please note how carefully that was phrased. It doesn't protect anyone from war crimes committed against another star nation (i.e., SS thugs who tortured or murdered POWs), nor does it protect them from prosecution for any crime they might have committed before swearing allegiance to another star nation. Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven.

Wu would be more at risk than Theisman under a persnickety reading of the law, and while he has immunity from prosecution, that is not the same as a pardon.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:40 pm

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stewart wrote:
cthia wrote:Yes! Welcome to the forums!

:oops:H GOLLY GEE. Do pardon my manners. Thanks for taking up the slack, Theemile. I think we've finally restocked on virtual Old Tilmans, since the junctions are reopened. If you've taken a liking to liquids filtered from a horse, that is. If not, we can just slip a virtual cocoa on Honor's tab. She'll never catch it amongst all the other real expenditures.

BTW, I don't recall our defectors interacting anywhere in storyline with their old navy, but they must have. Anyone else recall?


----------------

At least the "after action" discussion following Fillereta's demise showed a very cordial interaction between Alfredo and Tom Theisman; Granted they were both on Manticore and in an unofficial setting, but it appears no ill will between these two.

-- Stewart


runsforcelery wrote:Uh, you might say that. Alfredo Wu is perhaps the person Tom Theisman most respects in the entire galaxy. He is, in fact, for various reasons (which I may get around to explaining to you down the road) the reason Theisman restored the Republic.

As for a pardon for Wu or Caslett, neither of them has any intention of putting Eloise in the position of having to issue any pardons. Which doesn't mean that they can never again visit Haven. They are now citizens of other, allied star nations, and in the treaty between the SKM and the RoH, Beth demanded (with a little nudge-nudge, wink-wink from Eloise) a clause recognizing the adopted citizenship of expatriates from either star nation to the other (there were none from the SKM to the PRH, of course) and granting them immunity for any "crimes" they might have against their previous star nation after they acquired their new citizenship. Please note how carefully that was phrased. It doesn't protect anyone from war crimes committed against another star nation (i.e., SS thugs who tortured or murdered POWs), nor does it protect them from prosecution for any crime they might have committed before swearing allegiance to another star nation. Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven.

Wu would be more at risk than Theisman under a persnickety reading of the law, and while he has immunity from prosecution, that is not the same as a pardon.

Alfredo (W)u? I'd say it's definitely a typo, except you made it twice?? Another memo I didn't get?

That's a wonderful, ingenious actually, way to get around the problem. But. Isn't it rather obvious? And wouldn't it seem self-serving of Eloise to grease the way for "the traitors," -- to dodge the wrath of the people who would give her a hard time with a pardon? Because, who else would it, could it, benefit?

As far as neither would want to do that to Eloise, I said the same thing, somewhere!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by Cartref   » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:58 pm

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There could be another reason, not specifically covered by runsforcelery, and that could be simply that both Yu & Caslet are both extremely honourable men and only defected after considerable soul searching and much heartache.

Would that honour prevent them from renouncing their Grason citizenship with all its like backlash from the antagonistic Grayson Steadholders.

Plus what reason could they give to Grayson for do this, they are both well treated and highly respected in Grayson
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:25 am

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Posts: 2418
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cthia wrote:Yes! Welcome to the forums!

cthia wrote::oops:H GOLLY GEE. Do pardon my manners. Thanks for taking up the slack, Theemile. I think we've finally restocked on virtual Old Tilmans, since the junctions are reopened. If you've taken a liking to liquids filtered from a horse, that is. If not, we can just slip a virtual cocoa on Honor's tab. She'll never catch it amongst all the other real expenditures.

BTW, I don't recall our defectors interacting anywhere in storyline with their old navy, but they must have. Anyone else recall?


----------------

stewart wrote:At least the "after action" discussion following Fillereta's demise showed a very cordial interaction between Alfredo and Tom Theisman; Granted they were both on Manticore and in an unofficial setting, but it appears no ill will between these two.

-- Stewart


runsforcelery wrote:Uh, you might say that. Alfredo Wu is perhaps the person Tom Theisman most respects in the entire galaxy. He is, in fact, for various reasons (which I may get around to explaining to you down the road) the reason Theisman restored the Republic.

As for a pardon for Wu or Caslett, neither of them has any intention of putting Eloise in the position of having to issue any pardons. Which doesn't mean that they can never again visit Haven. They are now citizens of other, allied star nations, and in the treaty between the SKM and the RoH, Beth demanded (with a little nudge-nudge, wink-wink from Eloise) a clause recognizing the adopted citizenship of expatriates from either star nation to the other (there were none from the SKM to the PRH, of course) and granting them immunity for any "crimes" they might have against their previous star nation after they acquired their new citizenship. Please note how carefully that was phrased. It doesn't protect anyone from war crimes committed against another star nation (i.e., SS thugs who tortured or murdered POWs), nor does it protect them from prosecution for any crime they might have committed before swearing allegiance to another star nation. Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven.

Wu would be more at risk than Theisman under a persnickety reading of the law, and while he has immunity from prosecution, that is not the same as a pardon.

Alfredo (W)u? I'd say it's definitely a typo, except you made it twice?? Another memo I didn't get?

That's a wonderful, ingenious actually, way to get around the problem. But. Isn't it rather obvious? And wouldn't it seem self-serving of Eloise to grease the way for "the traitors," -- to dodge the wrath of the people who would give her a hard time with a pardon? Because, who else would it, could it, benefit?

As far as neither would want to do that to Eloise, I said the same thing, somewhere!


It was a typo, induced by my voice recognition software and not caught by my proofreading eye.

Very few Havenites think of Yu or Caslett as traitors, given the circumstances each faced. Of course some of the old school diehards do, but those are the same people who want to strangle the Pericard constitution and return to the "good old days." Nobody is too worried about their reaction, really, because if they're ever in a position to do anything about it, the Republic is going to have a lot worse problems about what to do about Yu and Caslett. Besides, Elizabeth couldn't not demand the clause without betraying people who had followed their consciences at the hardest moment in their lives. And Yu and Caslett are guilty of nothing Tom Theisman didn't also: rebellion against the Committee and helping to kill personnel who were "just following orders" from the folks who killed the Legislaturalists.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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