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Grayson - We Shall Overcome

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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by tlb   » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:15 pm

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Nico wrote:Do remember that such a backlash had already occurred and that the great majority of Graysons reacted with revulsion and outrage against both the assassination attempt on Benjamin Mayhew and later on Honor. That reaction on both occasions can be seen as a pretty good indicator of the direction that popular opinion on Grayson would take in the year's to come.

tlb wrote:The backlash, such as it was, predated the alliance with Manticore and was mostly a personal reaction by cousin Jared against Benjamin's foreign education, which caused him to aid a Masadan fifth column. That resulted in an assassination attempt against both Honor and the Protector. Jared had inherited the position of Maccabeus from his father.

The only other assassination attempt on Honor was the nanotech controlled shooting on the bridge by Honor's aide; the faked hanging of Honor that aroused so much feeling was an execution, not an assassination.
Jonathan_S wrote:What about Burdette's attempt to have Honor killed?

Taking out her pinnace and sending attackers in to shoot the survivors (killing Reverend Hanks). I'd call that a 3rd assassination attempt...

tlb wrote:Quite right, sorry about that.

stewart wrote:By now, with (1) Honor on "leave of absence" from uniform and full-time Steadholder and Mommy, and (2) the Grayson treecat colony at 50-75 cats, Mueller, Burdette and company are likely being VERY circumspect in their public actions as they know (and all other Graysons know) that their emotional patterns are being read by any available 'cat within range. There would be at least 3 'cats present anytime the Keys are in chambers (Nimitz, Benjamin's guardian and the Chancellor's guardian).
The only "safe" place is within their own steadings.

Since Honor executed Burdette (after her would-be assassin confessed everything) and Mueller was executed after the attack on the Protector and the Queen, I believe you must be referring to anyone who might think like "Mueller, Burdette and company".

Going back to that assassination attempt that shot down Honor's shuttle; although we expect that some of the feelings were due to respect for Honor, probably a large part was due the the deaths of children and of Reverend Julius Hanks. The feelings about Honor are complicated, because there was a significant percentage of the population that had considered her to share blame for the deaths of those children, prior to the confession of Burdette. Freed of that smear, she defeated Burdette and then defeated Haven's attempts to attack Grayson and liberate Masada. It was those events, rather than the assassination attempt, that eventually resulted in putting her statue on a pedestal.
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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by Nico   » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:10 pm

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I think that Burdette's attempt to frame, and then assassinate, Honor, and the events that followed only strengthened her position within Graysonic society. The Graysons realized that, no matter her origins or different faith, she very much personified the very best of Graysonic values - integrity, sacrifice, duty, and yes, honour.

It is always a mistake to idolize any society, but I think that if Mr Weber absolutely had to create a religiously-driven society, then Grayson was the very best he could have conceived. It is not a perfect society, it is riven with outdated prejudices and attitudes, but then again, Graysons are human and thus given to sin. They'd be the very first to acknowledge that, I think. Still, given the failings of the human nature, I think that Graysons are remarkably well-adjusted and open-minded people for a society so deeply entrenched in their faith.
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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by munroburton   » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:22 am

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tlb wrote:
stewart wrote:By now, with (1) Honor on "leave of absence" from uniform and full-time Steadholder and Mommy, and (2) the Grayson treecat colony at 50-75 cats, Mueller, Burdette and company are likely being VERY circumspect in their public actions as they know (and all other Graysons know) that their emotional patterns are being read by any available 'cat within range. There would be at least 3 'cats present anytime the Keys are in chambers (Nimitz, Benjamin's guardian and the Chancellor's guardian).
The only "safe" place is within their own steadings.

Since Honor executed Burdette (after her would-be assassin confessed everything) and Mueller was executed after the attack on the Protector and the Queen, I believe you must be referring to anyone who might think like "Mueller, Burdette and company".


Steadings are inherited. Not sure about the new Burdette, but Mueller's son became the new Steadholder and tried to cause trouble when news of Honor's pregnancy leaked. Seemed to be a case of "his father's son".
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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by tlb   » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:56 am

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stewart wrote:By now, with (1) Honor on "leave of absence" from uniform and full-time Steadholder and Mommy, and (2) the Grayson treecat colony at 50-75 cats, Mueller, Burdette and company are likely being VERY circumspect in their public actions as they know (and all other Graysons know) that their emotional patterns are being read by any available 'cat within range. There would be at least 3 'cats present anytime the Keys are in chambers (Nimitz, Benjamin's guardian and the Chancellor's guardian).
The only "safe" place is within their own steadings.

tlb wrote:Since Honor executed Burdette (after her would-be assassin confessed everything) and Mueller was executed after the attack on the Protector and the Queen, I believe you must be referring to anyone who might think like "Mueller, Burdette and company".

munroburton wrote:Steadings are inherited. Not sure about the new Burdette, but Mueller's son became the new Steadholder and tried to cause trouble when news of Honor's pregnancy leaked. Seemed to be a case of "his father's son".

Fair enough, but there is nothing illegal about being unhappy either with change or with Honor. The only steadholders that we know were criminals are dead. So there are no current Keys (to our knowledge) that need to circumspect when in chambers. Since the cats sense emotions, they would have been able to tell that the deceased Burdette had strong feelings; but they would not be able to tell that his thoughts were criminal, particularly since he was convinced that he was acting out God's will - so he would not have signs of a guilty conscience.
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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by cthia   » Wed May 15, 2019 9:57 am

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Does anyone know whether Honor's particular religious affiliation has been mentioned?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by tlb   » Wed May 15, 2019 10:22 am

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cthia wrote:Does anyone know whether Honor's particular religious affiliation has been mentioned?

From At All Costs, chapter 28:
"It wasn't very difficult to guess, Your Grace," Telmachi replied. "Especially not in light of Dame Honor's stature on Grayson and the rather poisonous commentary of one of our less than scintillating examples of journalistic professionalism. Of course, the fact that she's neither Catholic nor a member of the Church of Humanity Unchained does leave both of us in rather a gray area where she's concerned."
"She may not be a daughter of Father Church," Sullivan said quietly, his eyes level, "but of my own experience, I can tell you she is most certainly a daughter of God. I'll be honest with you and admit that nothing would give me greater joy than to have her embrace Father Church, but this is one woman for whose soul I feel no concern at all."
"That accords well with my own impression of her," Telmachi said seriously. "I believe she's a Third Stellar?"
"She is. Which presents me with something of a problem, since the Third Stellars appear to have no organized hierarchy in the sense your Church or mine does."
"The Third Stellars are actually rather like I suppose the Church of Humanity might have turned out without a firmly established hierarchy," Telmachi said. "When the representatives of all their congregations meet for their General Convocation every three T-years, they elect a leadership for the Convocation, and also the membership of a Coordinating Committee to function between Convocations, but each congregation—and each individual member of each congregation—is personally responsible for his or her relationship with God. I'm on quite good terms with several of their clergy, and one of them compared their General Convocation to an exercise in herding treecats."

I was somewhat unhappy about the big buildup over Honor being in love with a married man and there was nothing that could be done; when the solution was simply to get White Haven's wedding vows changed. All that fuss for such a simple solution, which did not occur to people described as great strategic and tactical thinkers.

I thought there must be a law for monogamy, but then they could have married on Grayson and Manticore would have to recognize it.
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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by cthia   » Wed May 15, 2019 4:21 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Does anyone know whether Honor's particular religious affiliation has been mentioned?

From At All Costs, chapter 28:
"It wasn't very difficult to guess, Your Grace," Telmachi replied. "Especially not in light of Dame Honor's stature on Grayson and the rather poisonous commentary of one of our less than scintillating examples of journalistic professionalism. Of course, the fact that she's neither Catholic nor a member of the Church of Humanity Unchained does leave both of us in rather a gray area where she's concerned."
"She may not be a daughter of Father Church," Sullivan said quietly, his eyes level, "but of my own experience, I can tell you she is most certainly a daughter of God. I'll be honest with you and admit that nothing would give me greater joy than to have her embrace Father Church, but this is one woman for whose soul I feel no concern at all."
"That accords well with my own impression of her," Telmachi said seriously. "I believe she's a Third Stellar?"
"She is. Which presents me with something of a problem, since the Third Stellars appear to have no organized hierarchy in the sense your Church or mine does."
"The Third Stellars are actually rather like I suppose the Church of Humanity might have turned out without a firmly established hierarchy," Telmachi said. "When the representatives of all their congregations meet for their General Convocation every three T-years, they elect a leadership for the Convocation, and also the membership of a Coordinating Committee to function between Convocations, but each congregation—and each individual member of each congregation—is personally responsible for his or her relationship with God. I'm on quite good terms with several of their clergy, and one of them compared their General Convocation to an exercise in herding treecats."

I was somewhat unhappy about the big buildup over Honor being in love with a married man and there was nothing that could be done; when the solution was simply to get White Haven's wedding vows changed. All that fuss for such a simple solution, which did not occur to people described as great strategic and tactical thinkers.

I thought there must be a law for monogamy, but then they could have married on Grayson and Manticore would have to recognize it.

The institution of marriage is rather sacred in most religions. I can understand why the solution wasn't readily obvious, or simple. In fact, three possible religions may have been involved, and may not have been as simple, behind the scenes, as it is portrayed. Even if Emily and Hamish's religions were the same, Honor's particular flavor of faith, Third Stellar, may actually still be having problems with it, offscreen. But, as I understand it, the lion's share of the problem existed on Grayson, not Manticore.

At any rate, thanks for the textev. My friend was right when he said he recalls it to be something nontraditional. I thought it was Catholic or Protestant. I don't know why.

Of course, what manner of worship is Third Stellar? Why does it remind me of something on the order of Freemasons? A hole card up the author's sleeve, is it?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:00 pm

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munroburton wrote:
Steadings are inherited. Not sure about the new Burdette, but Mueller's son became the new Steadholder and tried to cause trouble when news of Honor's pregnancy leaked. Seemed to be a case of "his father's son".


It is in the short story, iirc "Letters from Grayson." A cousin (also Burdette) who supported the protagonist in her effort to be independent of a junior spendthrift brother and his arch-conservative pastor, who was advising him to exert his "rights" and force her out of the GSN and back to the barefoot-pregnant-poverty of the kitchen as soon as he spent all her money. Burdette is in Honor's camp, now.

Rob
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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:53 pm

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cthia wrote:Of course, what manner of worship is Third Stellar? Why does it remind me of something on the order of Freemasons? A hole card up the author's sleeve, is it?

Apparently some future form of Protestant Christianity.
There's a little more from Flag in Exile; but not much.

Flag in Exile wrote:On a personal level, she was here because she had learned to respect the Church and because it was so central to the lives of her people. She needed to share it, even at one remove, to understand them. And even if that hadn't been true, she found the solemn majesty of the Church's liturgy and music compellingly beautiful.
Honor had been raised in the Third Stellar Missionary Communion (Reformed), but her family, like most Sphinx yeomen, had always been low church. The Third Stellars emphasized each individual's direct, personal relationship with God, with a minimum of structure. The high church had become more formal over the last few T-centuries, but low church services tended to be quiet, introspective affairs, and Honor had been unprepared for the sheer pageantry of the Church of Humanity. She supposed Mother Helen, the priest who'd confirmed her so many years ago, would have sniffed at all the "unnecessary fol-de-rol." She'd certainly regarded the formalism of her own denomination's high churchmen with enough reservations! But Honor suspected even Mother Helen would admit the beauty of Grayson's liturgy, and no one could doubt the personal faith of the people who followed it.
So whatever Third Stellar Missionary Communion (Reformed) is it's further subdivided into a high and a low church. But as it's only mentioned, pretty much in passing, in two book RFC hasn't laid out its history so we don't know from which particular current branch(s) of Christianity it derives.
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Re: Grayson - We Shall Overcome
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:44 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Of course, what manner of worship is Third Stellar? Why does it remind me of something on the order of Freemasons? A hole card up the author's sleeve, is it?

Apparently some future form of Protestant Christianity.
There's a little more from Flag in Exile; but not much.

Flag in Exile wrote:On a personal level, she was here because she had learned to respect the Church and because it was so central to the lives of her people. She needed to share it, even at one remove, to understand them. And even if that hadn't been true, she found the solemn majesty of the Church's liturgy and music compellingly beautiful.
Honor had been raised in the Third Stellar Missionary Communion (Reformed), but her family, like most Sphinx yeomen, had always been low church. The Third Stellars emphasized each individual's direct, personal relationship with God, with a minimum of structure. The high church had become more formal over the last few T-centuries, but low church services tended to be quiet, introspective affairs, and Honor had been unprepared for the sheer pageantry of the Church of Humanity. She supposed Mother Helen, the priest who'd confirmed her so many years ago, would have sniffed at all the "unnecessary fol-de-rol." She'd certainly regarded the formalism of her own denomination's high churchmen with enough reservations! But Honor suspected even Mother Helen would admit the beauty of Grayson's liturgy, and no one could doubt the personal faith of the people who followed it.
So whatever Third Stellar Missionary Communion (Reformed) is it's further subdivided into a high and a low church. But as it's only mentioned, pretty much in passing, in two book RFC hasn't laid out its history so we don't know from which particular current branch(s) of Christianity it derives.


The fact that you were able to distill all of that down and come up with Protestant, speaks volumes. ;) I thought Honor was possibly Protestant, or Catholic, as well, but I dunno why.

What is this reference to high and low? Snobs and true Christians come to mind.

I don't see Grayson wanting to invite outsiders to commune with them. Which, going out into the community to witness, or any such diplomatic mission, would have to ultimately entail. Or The Church of Humanity Unchained would appear to be a bunch of hypocrites.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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