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Post League Eridani

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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by tlb   » Wed May 22, 2019 9:07 am

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But that cannot be the complete story on manufacturing; we know that there is still human labor involved in assembling a ship in a yard - so it is not that case that you print out the entire ship: not even a LAC or courier. That also ignores all the manual labor involved in maintaining and upgrading ships; that labor and those facilities were lost (the labor was replaced to some extent by the return of captured personnel).
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by cthia   » Wed May 22, 2019 9:22 am

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runsforcelery wrote:Honorverse industry isn't as hard to update as terrestrial industry has been, but there are certain parallels. For example, the British steel and shipbuilding industries suffered badly after WWI because they had such an enormous existing capacity in both fields. They couldn't/were unwilling to shut down existing foundries and fabrication sites that were still producing in order to replace them with plant that would produce more quickly, efficiently, and cheaply. Could argue that the same thing happened to the US steel industry in the last few decades of the 20th century.

Same thing happened to the US auto industry. We were hesitant to invest in robotics to update our assembly lines to equal the quality, reliability and output of the Japanese at much cheaper costs, in the long run. American businesses has to show a profit quarterly, not ten years down the road. Result, government bailouts.

I can understand Robert Woodward's question though. Could the RMNs printers and related tech be superior? The RMNs overall educational system produces a net superior effect across the board. Even Shannon's 'puter screens were inferior. She had to massage them. Haven uses dot matrix printers. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by tlb   » Wed May 22, 2019 9:41 am

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runsforcelery wrote:Honorverse industry isn't as hard to update as terrestrial industry has been, but there are certain parallels. For example, the British steel and shipbuilding industries suffered badly after WWI because they had such an enormous existing capacity in both fields. They couldn't/were unwilling to shut down existing foundries and fabrication sites that were still producing in order to replace them with plant that would produce more quickly, efficiently, and cheaply. Could argue that the same thing happened to the US steel industry in the last few decades of the 20th century.

cthia wrote:Same thing happened to the US auto industry. We were hesitant to invest in robotics to update our assembly lines to equal the quality, reliability and output of the Japanese at much cheaper costs, in the long run. American businesses has to show a profit quarterly, not ten years down the road. Result, government bailouts.

I can understand Robert Woodward's question though. Could the RMNs printers and related tech be superior? The RMNs overall educational system produces a net superior effect across the board. Even Shannon's 'puter screens were inferior. She had to massage them. Haven uses dot matrix printers. LOL

Both Japanese and mainland Europe got to build anew after WWII; one result was that Japanese assembly lines were much more flexible than the ones set up in the USA (or perhaps Britain). Also quality control had become more important (particularly to the Japanese, whose goods were considered inferior) and were easier to implement in the newer factories.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Wed May 22, 2019 10:22 am

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cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.)


Don't forget that the Sol system still uses the archaic "League" - of unextraordinary gentlemen. And League of arrogant wholeasses. And, of course, since Honor's visit, the Sol system is now 20,000 Leagues under seige.


unit of measure? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League takes you to other meanings.

:) League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was originally in a short story by A. Conan Doyle; that wasn't cited in the Wiki, just the film.

You usually use examples regarding the US, in your definitions of law; but the US is a federation, not a League. The dis-ambiguity link for League takes you to definitions of political systems as well. So, a reminder of what we're discussing isn't out of line.

One of the synonyms for "league" is Confederation, which is a pretty good definition for both the Silesian State and the Solarian State. Both of which (illegally) denied member state's right of secession. . . . I bolded parts of it.

I think the League post war will fracture badly; some regions will probably be rather like Silesia, where, iirc from HAE, 1/3 of all systems were in revolt at any given time. (Another reason the Sillie Navy couldn't be bothered to hunt pirates ;) )

Rob

[quote=Wikipedia]A confederation (also known as a confederacy or league) is a union of sovereign states, united for purposes of common action often in relation to other states.[1] Usually created by a treaty, confederations of states tend to be established for dealing with critical issues, such as defense, foreign relations, internal trade or currency, with the general government being required to provide support for all its members. Confederalism represents a main form of inter-governmentalism, this being defined as any form of interaction between states which takes place on the basis of sovereign independence or government.

The nature of the relationship among the member states constituting a confederation varies considerably. Likewise, the relationship between the member states and the general government, and the distribution of powers among them is highly variable. Some looser confederations are similar to international organisations. Other confederations with stricter rules may resemble federal systems.

Since the member states of a confederation retain their sovereignty, they have an implicit right of secession. Political philosopher Emmerich Vattel observed: ‘Several sovereign and independent states may unite themselves together by a perpetual confederacy without each in particular ceasing to be a perfect state. … The deliberations in common will offer no violence to the sovereignty of each member’.[2]

Under a confederal arrangement, in contrast with a federal one, the central authority is relatively weak.[3] Decisions made by the general government in a unicameral legislature, a council of the member states, require subsequent implementation by the member states to take effect. They are therefore not laws acting directly upon the individual, but instead have more the character of inter-state agreements.[4] Also, decision-making in the general government usually proceeds by consensus (unanimity) and not by majority, which makes for a slow and inefficient government. These problematic features, limiting the effectiveness of the union, mean that political pressure tends to build over time for the transition to a federal system of government, as happened in the American, Swiss, German and European cases of regional integration. [/quote]
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by cthia   » Wed May 22, 2019 10:40 am

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cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.)


Don't forget that the Sol system still uses the archaic "League" - of unextraordinary gentlemen. And League of arrogant wholeasses. And, of course, since Honor's visit, the Sol system is now 20,000 Leagues under seige.


Armed Neo-Bob wrote:unit of measure? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League takes you to other meanings.

:) League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was originally in a short story by A. Conan Doyle; that wasn't cited in the Wiki, just the film.

You usually use examples regarding the US, in your definitions of law; but the US is a federation, not a League. The dis-ambiguity link for League takes you to definitions of political systems as well. So, a reminder of what we're discussing isn't out of line.

One of the synonyms for "league" is Confederation, which is a pretty good definition for both the Silesian State and the Solarian State. Both of which (illegally) denied member state's right of secession. . . . I bolded parts of it.

I think the League post war will fracture badly; some regions will probably be rather like Silesia, where, iirc from HAE, 1/3 of all systems were in revolt at any given time. (Another reason the Sillie Navy couldn't be bothered to hunt pirates ;) )

Rob

[quote=Wikipedia]A confederation (also known as a confederacy or league) is a union of sovereign states, united for purposes of common action often in relation to other states.[1] Usually created by a treaty, confederations of states tend to be established for dealing with critical issues, such as defense, foreign relations, internal trade or currency, with the general government being required to provide support for all its members. Confederalism represents a main form of inter-governmentalism, this being defined as any form of interaction between states which takes place on the basis of sovereign independence or government.

The nature of the relationship among the member states constituting a confederation varies considerably. Likewise, the relationship between the member states and the general government, and the distribution of powers among them is highly variable. Some looser confederations are similar to international organisations. Other confederations with stricter rules may resemble federal systems.

Since the member states of a confederation retain their sovereignty, they have an implicit right of secession. Political philosopher Emmerich Vattel observed: ‘Several sovereign and independent states may unite themselves together by a perpetual confederacy without each in particular ceasing to be a perfect state. … The deliberations in common will offer no violence to the sovereignty of each member’.[2]

Under a confederal arrangement, in contrast with a federal one, the central authority is relatively weak.[3] Decisions made by the general government in a unicameral legislature, a council of the member states, require subsequent implementation by the member states to take effect. They are therefore not laws acting directly upon the individual, but instead have more the character of inter-state agreements.[4] Also, decision-making in the general government usually proceeds by consensus (unanimity) and not by majority, which makes for a slow and inefficient government. These problematic features, limiting the effectiveness of the union, mean that political pressure tends to build over time for the transition to a federal system of government, as happened in the American, Swiss, German and European cases of regional integration.


Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I think the League post war will fracture badly; some regions will probably be rather like Silesia, where, iirc from HAE, 1/3 of all systems were in revolt at any given time.


Hence, 20,000 Leagues Under Siege. I admit to playing with words, notions and double entendres more than I probably should give credit that educated people will get. Whose shortcoming that is I'll accept as ambiguous.

I'm aware of the other meanings. The unit of measure is what I wanted to key on. How else should we measure the arrogance of the League lest by some form of archaic measure, included in my original post.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by tlb   » Wed May 22, 2019 10:46 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:One of the synonyms for "league" is Confederation, which is a pretty good definition for both the Silesian State and the Solarian State. Both of which (illegally) denied member state's right of secession. . . . I bolded parts of it.

I think the League post war will fracture badly; some regions will probably be rather like Silesia, where, iirc from HAE, 1/3 of all systems were in revolt at any given time. (Another reason the Sillie Navy couldn't be bothered to hunt pirates ;) )

Wikipedia wrote:A confederation (also known as a confederacy or league) is a union of sovereign states, united for purposes of common action often in relation to other states.[1] Usually created by a treaty, confederations of states tend to be established for dealing with critical issues, such as defense, foreign relations, internal trade or currency, with the general government being required to provide support for all its members. Confederalism represents a main form of inter-governmentalism, this being defined as any form of interaction between states which takes place on the basis of sovereign independence or government.

The nature of the relationship among the member states constituting a confederation varies considerably. Likewise, the relationship between the member states and the general government, and the distribution of powers among them is highly variable. Some looser confederations are similar to international organisations. Other confederations with stricter rules may resemble federal systems.

Since the member states of a confederation retain their sovereignty, they have an implicit right of secession. Political philosopher Emmerich Vattel observed: ‘Several sovereign and independent states may unite themselves together by a perpetual confederacy without each in particular ceasing to be a perfect state. … The deliberations in common will offer no violence to the sovereignty of each member’.[2]

Under a confederal arrangement, in contrast with a federal one, the central authority is relatively weak.[3] Decisions made by the general government in a unicameral legislature, a council of the member states, require subsequent implementation by the member states to take effect. They are therefore not laws acting directly upon the individual, but instead have more the character of inter-state agreements.[4] Also, decision-making in the general government usually proceeds by consensus (unanimity) and not by majority, which makes for a slow and inefficient government. These problematic features, limiting the effectiveness of the union, mean that political pressure tends to build over time for the transition to a federal system of government, as happened in the American, Swiss, German and European cases of regional integration.

Actually I thought that the Southern Articles of Confederation restricted the right to secede. Here is an opening quote about confederation from the Encyclopedia Britannica:
Confederations are voluntary associations of independent states that, to secure some common purpose, agree to certain limitations on their freedom of action and establish some joint machinery of consultation or deliberation. The limitations on the freedom of action of the member states may be as trivial as an acknowledgment of their duty to consult with each other before taking some independent action or as significant as the obligation to be bound by majority decisions of the member states.

PS. Your use of the quote structure failed because you did not put Wikipedia in quotes. Don't you preview before submitting?
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by kzt   » Wed May 22, 2019 11:29 am

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tlb wrote:Actually I thought that the Southern Articles of Confederation restricted the right to secede.

The CSA was pretty much a totalitarian police state by the end, one run by incompetent fools.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed May 22, 2019 2:53 pm

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tlb wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:After the SLN genocidal attack on Beawulf?

Oh Hell Yes!

There was NO genocidal attack on Beowulf by the SLN; the SLN attack killed about 5000 people and destroyed part of a missile assembly line.



My bad.
I was thinking of the other scorched orbitals attacks by the SLN.
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Thu May 23, 2019 12:17 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:(original post deleted, because I am interested in only part of Weber's reply)

runsforcelery wrote:
You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers.


Is the reason that Haven couldn't duplicate SKM hardware is because its "printers" weren't precise enough?


To which David Weber responded:
runsforcelery wrote:What part of the SKM's hardware are you talking about duplicating? Generally speaking, you're manufacturing components that then are assembled, not just pressing a button and watching completed missiles, for example, emerge from the hopper at the other end of the queue. Well, actually you are but that's because the components are being assembled en route to the other end of the queue, if you see what I mean.


(SNIP)


Beowulf was building Apollo components because Haven couldn't. I assume that complete specifications were available in backup storage. I have thought of two reasons:

1) Haven didn't have equipment capable of doing the job.
2) Beowulf had the similar enough gear that they could do the job with minimal programming, while Haven's gear was utterly different and it would had taken many months to recreate the programming.

So, which is it? Or is there a 3rd reason?
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Post League Eridani
Post by Joat42   » Thu May 23, 2019 6:33 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:..snip..
Beowulf was building Apollo components because Haven couldn't. I assume that complete specifications were available in backup storage. I have thought of two reasons:

1) Haven didn't have equipment capable of doing the job.
2) Beowulf had the similar enough gear that they could do the job with minimal programming, while Haven's gear was utterly different and it would had taken many months to recreate the programming.

So, which is it? Or is there a 3rd reason?

Haven didn't have button-pushers with the right qualifications... :D

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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