Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

Reserve Fleet

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Castenea   » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:08 am

Castenea
Captain of the List

Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:21 pm
Location: MD

stewart wrote:I disagree with this because you don't know when the pace will change and for how long it will remain stagnant. If someone comes up with a technology that makes my fleet obsolete and they have ill intentions towards me then I am screwed if I have a fleet that is now obsolete or no fleet at all. On the other hand if you become aware of a drastic change in technology you can make adjustments and try to catch up because you have the shipyards with experience, the construction workers, the military expertise etc... For a fleet the crew is just as important and in some situations it could very well be the bottleneck.
----------------

There's 2 basic parts of any reserve program --
1) Personnel Training -- this is the "comparatively easy" portion -- on-going personnel training and hands-on familiarization with current hardware, doctrine and policies. Potentially all classroom and lab.
2) Equipment -- This takes on-going and initial design planning -- In the real world (ours) or the Honorverse (or any other), a fleet (whether ships, aircraft or armored vehicles) need to be designed with both on-going maintenance and internal system upgrades/replacements in mind. What you are basically designing is a framework/infrastructure that "parts" can be plugged into. There are always limitations -- a submarine built with 33 in tubes will not be able to fire torpedoes (or sub-launched Harpoon missiles) that are 44 to 48 in. ; An Avalon-Class light cruiser will not be able to support a Mk 16, despite being "newer".
There are missions a Spru-Can can do, there are missions a Burke-Can can due and missions a Zumwalt-Can can do.

-- Stewart

An Article I found interesting about the change in Rail Roads from Steam to diesel power and why Alco was unable to make the transition from a steam locomotive builder to a Diesel locomotive builder. http://utahrails.net/articles/alco-v-emd.php The change in tech is seldom in one year, and obsolete does not mean useless. Diesels actually became effective for long haul on the rail roads circa 1935, the end of steam as the primary motive power was not until the period 1950-1960.

Part of the problem is that the presence of the large reserve fleet gave key people in the SLN both excuses and incentives to ignore changing paradigms. Problems of both sunk cost fallacies, and refusal to accept that paradigms were changing left the SLN thinking they were the first rate power after they were shown to not be. Nothing is more expensive than being shown you have the second best military in a war.
Top
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:48 am

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2276
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:31 am
Location: KY

There has to be a balance between new and older ships. There also has to be a balance in what you upgrade and what the advantage is of upgrading vs replacing with new for the intended mission parameters

The kind of mixed example of reserve vs new shows up at the time frame of WWII. The US had put a lot of ships into reserves but didn't really do much with them and, while there was continued building of newer ships (and adding aircraft carriers etc) there wasn't a lot you could do with some of the larger ships from the reserve fleet. One thing that worked out well- for the British- was being able to get the 50 Lend-Lease destroyers. They were certainly not improved enough comming out of the US reserve to meet the standards of the then-current US or British, German, French or IJN modern DDs... but....they were capable to serve as early war anti-submarine platforms and convoy escorts. At the time, that was what was needed to keep the North Atlantic shipping flowing and even with the older/smaller deck guns and early version of depth charges (and some AA added) they provided at least a stop-gap solution to a specific problem- the U-boats-- and it helped.

The argument of the Avalon class LC not being able to use the Mk 16 is valid but the weaponry is in transition and you still have to build what you have (with ongoing modifications/upgrades that will make sense). The Avalon's still have a role. They also have at least some ability to use the Mk-16 in the pod/flatpack application so they have a while to be relevent. They certainly can perform in Silesia and elsewhere with pods being a way to extend that usage.
We keep being told that the RMN, at least, is still examining what is going to be the best designed and force mix for the present and at least short term with the SL changes and we know (though Manticore doesn't yet) that the RF at least is going to be a problems. '

Manticore also has to be get built back up to at least being able to replace ships and get the weapons/missile lines fully back into production with the new protection schemes against things like the OB attack.
Top
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by stewart   » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:33 pm

stewart
Captain of the List

Posts: 715
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:54 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Silverwall wrote:There is real value in transferring obsolescent ships to training commands in new territories.

HOWEVER this is not a reserve in the sense of the original proposal instead it is a training command that can double is local protection against light raiders and pirates. They remain active ships on the Order of Battle but they are active ships in a second line function. We see this in real life with how the Japanese kept their old armored cruisers from the Russo-Japanese war as local coast defence/training ships and some even survived the massacre of the IJN in 44/45.


-----------------

(1) Building up an ally's local defense force to resist pirates and wannabe warlords (or renegade x-SLN / x-PRH StateSec) reduces the RMN / GA remote stationing obligations.
An older Sag-A / Starknight or even Crusader/Prince Consort class CA will take out most pirates and cause a x-SLN to think twice (or 3x) (even captured x-SLN Gladiator's work for local self-defense forces)

(2) Builds up local technical capabilities with local yard capability

(3) Builds up local trade security and good will at lower cost.

-- Stewart
Top
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:42 pm

quite possibly a cat
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:51 am

I think the best way to go about creating a reserve fleet probably isn't to create a reserve fleet. Instead automate your industry and just massively increase your production. You don't need a reserve fleet. You need reserve industrial capacity. Of course, you can't just keep reserve capacity like that, you need to exercise it! Like a muscle.


The plan: Build giant printers that can print your ships with minimal human intervention. Teach the printers to self-replicate. Give them spare components and a limited ability to self-diagnose problems and self-repair. Feed a good chunk of raw materials. Maybe give them a few hundred trillion tons of raw materials to start the self-replication process.

Wait while the printers run. When the printers get old, the other ones will consume them!

Now give them the rest of the asteroid belt to make ships! These won't be conventional ships, they'll be designed for complete automation. Filled with helium or something to minimize degradation. The printers will increase their numbers at the same time. Keep building. Eventually feed them Pluto and Charon.

The goal is to have at least a Pluto worth of ships for your system. The old ships can be recycled every few dozen years.

Had the Solarians done this like they should have, they would have won the Second Battle of Manticore hands down! Honestly, one Pluto isn't a whole lot of ships. What if some Beserkers show up after eating a few thousand star systems?
Top
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:18 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5988
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

quite possibly a cat wrote:The plan: Build giant printers that can print your ships with minimal human intervention. Teach the printers to self-replicate. Give them spare components and a limited ability to self-diagnose problems and self-repair. Feed a good chunk of raw materials. Maybe give them a few hundred trillion tons of raw materials to start the self-replication process.

Wait while the printers run. When the printers get old, the other ones will consume them!

Now give them the rest of the asteroid belt to make ships! These won't be conventional ships, they'll be designed for complete automation. Filled with helium or something to minimize degradation. The printers will increase their numbers at the same time. Keep building. Eventually feed them Pluto and Charon.

The goal is to have at least a Pluto worth of ships for your system. The old ships can be recycled every few dozen years.

My immediate thought while reading this:
Image
quite possibly a cat wrote:Had the Solarians done this like they should have, they would have won the Second Battle of Manticore hands down! Honestly, one Pluto isn't a whole lot of ships. What if some Beserkers show up after eating a few thousand star systems?

And then I see you were thinking along those lines too.
Top
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by stewart   » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:44 pm

stewart
Captain of the List

Posts: 715
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:54 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

quite possibly a cat wrote:I think the best way to go about creating a reserve fleet probably isn't to create a reserve fleet. Instead automate your industry and just massively increase your production. You don't need a reserve fleet. You need reserve industrial capacity. Of course, you can't just keep reserve capacity like that, you need to exercise it! Like a muscle.


The plan: Build giant printers that can print your ships with minimal human intervention. Teach the printers to self-replicate. Give them spare components and a limited ability to self-diagnose problems and self-repair. Feed a good chunk of raw materials. Maybe give them a few hundred trillion tons of raw materials to start the self-replication process.

Wait while the printers run. When the printers get old, the other ones will consume them!

Now give them the rest of the asteroid belt to make ships! These won't be conventional ships, they'll be designed for complete automation. Filled with helium or something to minimize degradation. The printers will increase their numbers at the same time. Keep building. Eventually feed them Pluto and Charon.

The goal is to have at least a Pluto worth of ships for your system. The old ships can be recycled every few dozen years.

Had the Solarians done this like they should have, they would have won the Second Battle of Manticore hands down! Honestly, one Pluto isn't a whole lot of ships. What if some Beserkers show up after eating a few thousand star systems?



------------------

It's the automation issue that's the problem -- with reserve (or active) ships that are mostly automated you cannot justify the payrolls, training, maintenance and spare parts expenses that get syphoned off to the New Madrid bank accts by the SLN Battle Fleet Admirals.

The whole purpose is NOT to make and maintain good, functional starships; the purpose is to develop (and pad) that retirement acct.

Shame, shame this should have been obvious.

-- Stewart
Top
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by tlb   » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:20 pm

tlb
Commodore

Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

quite possibly a cat wrote:I think the best way to go about creating a reserve fleet probably isn't to create a reserve fleet. Instead automate your industry and just massively increase your production. You don't need a reserve fleet. You need reserve industrial capacity. Of course, you can't just keep reserve capacity like that, you need to exercise it! Like a muscle.

The plan: Build giant printers that can print your ships with minimal human intervention. Teach the printers to self-replicate. Give them spare components and a limited ability to self-diagnose problems and self-repair. Feed a good chunk of raw materials. Maybe give them a few hundred trillion tons of raw materials to start the self-replication process.

Wait while the printers run. When the printers get old, the other ones will consume them!

Now give them the rest of the asteroid belt to make ships! These won't be conventional ships, they'll be designed for complete automation. Filled with helium or something to minimize degradation. The printers will increase their numbers at the same time. Keep building. Eventually feed them Pluto and Charon.

The goal is to have at least a Pluto worth of ships for your system. The old ships can be recycled every few dozen years.

Had the Solarians done this like they should have, they would have won the Second Battle of Manticore hands down! Honestly, one Pluto isn't a whole lot of ships.

stewart wrote:It's the automation issue that's the problem -- with reserve (or active) ships that are mostly automated you cannot justify the payrolls, training, maintenance and spare parts expenses that get syphoned off to the New Madrid bank accts by the SLN Battle Fleet Admirals.

The whole purpose is NOT to make and maintain good, functional starships; the purpose is to develop (and pad) that retirement acct.

Shame, shame this should have been obvious.

At a minimum, by author fiat, this is not permitted in the Honorverse - whether or not it would make economic sense. I am sure there would still be ways to pad the retirement account. In fact I do not remember any mention of the SLN doing it this particular way; it was in the Silesian Confederation that fiddling the payroll etc. was used to pad bank accounts.

If a Pluto's worth of ships is not a lot, then I do not see how this does better than Filetra. His problem was not the lack of ships, it was the inadequacy of the technology compared to Apollo - which is not solved by robot ships whose armaments are still stuck at early Havenite war levels (actually the Cataphract is a bit better than that).
Top
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by munroburton   » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:42 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2038
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:16 am
Location: Scotland

quite possibly a cat wrote:Honestly, one Pluto isn't a whole lot of ships


tlb wrote:If a Pluto's worth of ships is not a lot, then I do not see how this does better than Filetra. His problem was not the lack of ships, it was the inadequacy of the technology compared to Apollo - which is not solved by robot ships whose armaments are still stuck at early Havenite war levels (actually the Cataphract is a bit better than that).


I suspect that comment from the cat was tongue in cheek. At 8 million tons per ship, Pluto converts into 1.6 quadrillion superdreadnoughts. :P

Seriously though, Pluto probably isn't a great source of warship material. It's mostly ice and rock. You'd be better off tapping Mercury for its iron, which is also well inside the hyper limit and less vulnerable to attack.
Top
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:34 pm

quite possibly a cat
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:51 am

munroburton wrote:I suspect that comment from the cat was tongue in cheek. At 8 million tons per ship, Pluto converts into 1.6 quadrillion superdreadnoughts.
A little bit. :P

The thing is if you manage a self-replicating industrial base disassembling entire planets for resources becomes a possibility. If you get a fancy tractor beam you could star mining a star for hydrogen and fusing it. And if you can do it, someone else could do it, so you need to prepare!

Some wimps might say you should consider the risk that you might accidentally unleash Beserkers.
tlb wrote:If a Pluto's worth of ships is not a lot, then I do not see how this does better than Filetra. His problem was not the lack of ships, it was the inadequacy of the technology compared to Apollo - which is not solved by robot ships whose armaments are still stuck at early Havenite war levels (actually the Cataphract is a bit better than that).
Apollo can't even take down a single ship per missile! It can't even target one ship per missile! All you need is a super-dreadnought per missile pack plus another few dozen superdreadnoughts per enemy ship. Since they don't have people, they don't need to worry about pesky compensater limits and can run down fleeing ships too.
Top
Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by tlb   » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:55 am

tlb
Commodore

Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

munroburton wrote:I suspect that comment from the cat was tongue in cheek. At 8 million tons per ship, Pluto converts into 1.6 quadrillion superdreadnoughts.

quite possibly a cat wrote:A little bit. :P

The thing is if you manage a self-replicating industrial base disassembling entire planets for resources becomes a possibility. If you get a fancy tractor beam you could star mining a star for hydrogen and fusing it. And if you can do it, someone else could do it, so you need to prepare!

Some wimps might say you should consider the risk that you might accidentally unleash Beserkers.
tlb wrote:If a Pluto's worth of ships is not a lot, then I do not see how this does better than Filetra. His problem was not the lack of ships, it was the inadequacy of the technology compared to Apollo - which is not solved by robot ships whose armaments are still stuck at early Havenite war levels (actually the Cataphract is a bit better than that).

quite possibly a cat wrote:Apollo can't even take down a single ship per missile! It can't even target one ship per missile! All you need is a super-dreadnought per missile pack plus another few dozen superdreadnoughts per enemy ship. Since they don't have people, they don't need to worry about pesky compensater limits and can run down fleeing ships too.

If the self-replicating machinery is located on a hyperspace capable mothership, then at some point you no longer need people. Will the alarmed neighbors try to destroy the world that started this? With the home world destroyed, will the self-replicating robot just go into automatic mode and go forth and multiply?

O brave new world that has no need for people in it. A mothership and its swarm of warships and scout ships arrives at a star system and proceeds to create daughter and attendant ships; each of each is sent to separate neighbor star systems. Presto, the galaxy is consumed. Can neighboring galaxies be infected?
Top

Return to Honorverse