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Computers and the OBS

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Computers and the OBS
Post by Michae   » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:52 pm

Michae
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Just wondering would it be possible to design a computer without going to Electric power and hack the OST? As in some of the sites I frequently visit I can log-in with guest mode,with a temp password and user-name where I can view the site but I'm not allowed to post anything or alter the content without getting approved,so would it be possible to do something similar here?Or not worth the risk?
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Re: Computers and the OBS
Post by dobriennm   » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:34 am

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Michae wrote:Just wondering would it be possible to design a computer without going to Electric power and hack the OST? As in some of the sites I frequently visit I can log-in with guest mode,with a temp password and user-name where I can view the site but I'm not allowed to post anything or alter the content without getting approved,so would it be possible to do something similar here?Or not worth the risk?


While non-electric computers are possible, at some point in order to hack the OBS it has to have some electric components to send signals to the OBS. Plus, anythng non-electric possible with Safehold technology would be huge/clumsy/hard to maintain. Non-electric computer were tried at least as late as the 1970's, but electronic computer simply improved faster than would ever be possible with mechanical/hydraulic computers.

However, a better way to hack the OBS would be to to create another AI/computer which is physically and electronically separated from OWL to hack the OBS. And you could even try to use it to hack the Key.

One obvious problem, though, with any idea to hack the OBS is it might "kick" the "Thing under the Temple" awake and nobody wants to chance that. The IC would first want to physically take out the OBS so it's no longer a threat and then handle the "Thing under the Temple" (which may have It's own surprises if It wakes up).

Now using a second AI to hack the Key might be okay IF!! there is no possibility of the second AI communicating electronically to anything outside itself (no radio, bluetooth, etc). Only thing allowed would be basically visual/keyboard communication. Even then it's risky since if it's a another recorded personality (maybe Schuler himself!) it might try to fool people into allowing electronic communication and then hack into all of the IC's stuff (like Owl).

By the way, anyone have any textev that shows the size of Nimue's recorded personality and how that file size compares to the 12 petabytes in the Key? An interesting possibility there if they're close!
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Re: Computers and the OBS
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:39 pm

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Michae wrote:Just wondering would it be possible to design a computer without going to Electric power and hack the OST?


In short - no.

* While mechanical or hydraulic computers are perfectly possible, their speed is utterly pathetic in comparison with electronic. It would literally took longer that the Universe existence to run complex programs on mechanical computers.

* How would you establish the data exchange with Rakurai Array platform without electricity? It may be possible to rely some information to the orbit by purely optical means (like whitewashing the large spot on surface and using the black canvas to cover and uncover it, thus translating "0" and "1" in binary code), but I really doubt that Rakurai computers have enough free thinking to interpret such data.

* Why should they need it? They have Owl, which is lightyears better than mechanical devices.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Computers and the OBS
Post by DMcCunney   » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:44 pm

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Michael wrote:Now using a second AI to hack the Key might be okay IF!! there is no possibility of the second AI communicating electronically to anything outside itself (no radio, bluetooth, etc). Only thing allowed would be basically visual/keyboard communication. Even then it's risky since if it's a another recorded personality (maybe Schuler himself!) it might try to fool people into allowing electronic communication and then hack into all of the IC's stuff (like Owl).
There's a larger risk that would make this a non-starter for the IC.

TextEv earlier has Owl speculating that if the key was encrypted by a high level civilian AI, attempting to hack into it would trigger routines that would wipe the contents. If it was encrypted by a military AI, the response would wipe him, too.

Having a complete second AI which duplicates Owl and having no physical connection between it and anything else when it tried to hack would protect Owl himself. But the most likely outcome would be the destruction of the Key.

The last thing the IC wants to do is destroy the contents of the Key. Unless Owl believes an attempt at hacking has a reasonable chance of actually accessing the data in the Key, there is no way the IC will even think about trying. They have no idea what's in the Key - only that it's too valuable to risk.

And while there may be a recorded personality in the Key, remember that the Key is a memory module, not a computer. That personality would need to be loaded into something like the VR unit Owl made for Narhmann to execute and function. What might it load into if Owl or a clone could access it?

I suspect there may well be a recorded personality in the Key, but the tale Paityr told about how the Key was to be used had the access point the Key was to be plugged into in a room beneath the Temple, so the system it would load into and run on will be one of the things tucked into the Temple's basement.
______
Dennis
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Re: Computers and the OBS
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:34 am

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If there is something under the Temple into which the Key has to be plugged in order to access/activate what is stored on the Key then it is going to be hooked up to some sort of computer and or AI and, logicaly, that receptical for the Key is supposed to have the software, power and capasity to open the information on the Key.
What it is going to do with the contents is another discussion.

Since neither Merlin nor OWL can get any definitive reading about the source(s) or level of power under the Temple it is yet another question that they can only speculate about.
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Re: Computers and the OBS
Post by Daryl   » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:21 am

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People tend to underestimate just how fast even our modern computers are compared to mechanical ones, or even the early electronic ones.
In about 1970 I was doing a university chemistry degree and obtained access to one of the only two computers in our state to run some phase graph calculations for molten metal blends. Had it returned undone next day as the 12 hour night shift down time I was allocated was insufficient, as they couldn't complete a run before one of the thousands of hot tube switches blew. Years later I put the same problem into Excel on an early Pentium desktop and it just rippled for a moment until my graphs were there. No possible mechanical computer would come within many orders of magnitude of running programs in a PICA's universe.

dobriennm wrote:
Michae wrote:Just wondering would it be possible to design a computer without going to Electric power and hack the OST? As in some of the sites I frequently visit I can log-in with guest mode,with a temp password and user-name where I can view the site but I'm not allowed to post anything or alter the content without getting approved,so would it be possible to do something similar here?Or not worth the risk?


While non-electric computers are possible, at some point in order to hack the OBS it has to have some electric components to send signals to the OBS. Plus, anythng non-electric possible with Safehold technology would be huge/clumsy/hard to maintain. Non-electric computer were tried at least as late as the 1970's, but electronic computer simply improved faster than would ever be possible with mechanical/hydraulic computers.

However, a better way to hack the OBS would be to to create another AI/computer which is physically and electronically separated from OWL to hack the OBS. And you could even try to use it to hack the Key.

One obvious problem, though, with any idea to hack the OBS is it might "kick" the "Thing under the Temple" awake and nobody wants to chance that. The IC would first want to physically take out the OBS so it's no longer a threat and then handle the "Thing under the Temple" (which may have It's own surprises if It wakes up).

Now using a second AI to hack the Key might be okay IF!! there is no possibility of the second AI communicating electronically to anything outside itself (no radio, bluetooth, etc). Only thing allowed would be basically visual/keyboard communication. Even then it's risky since if it's a another recorded personality (maybe Schuler himself!) it might try to fool people into allowing electronic communication and then hack into all of the IC's stuff (like Owl).

By the way, anyone have any textev that shows the size of Nimue's recorded personality and how that file size compares to the 12 petabytes in the Key? An interesting possibility there if they're close!
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Re: Computers and the OBS
Post by Whitecold   » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:24 pm

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Computers themselves are not the problem when it comes to the inner circle. Merlin is a computer, so is Owl, and I am pretty sure whatever microchip controls their security coms is more powerful than any mechanical computer ever built.

I would not even be worried about regular 21st century electronics (without antennas) Something like a laptop doesn't have a strong signature that could be picked up from orbit, its biggest emission is heat which could come from anything.

The issue is that a) electricity is explicitly banned, and b) there is no way to stop anyone from experimenting with a massive plant if you decide to toss the proscriptions entirely.

The main use for a mechanical computer will most likely be something along the lines of fire control for the ICN
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Re: Computers and the OBS
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:15 pm

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Years ago I was tasked with looking at new account activity in a bank which was implimenting a cross selling program within the bank. Long story but the way to collect the data was to modify the existing new account entry forms (think input form filled out in the branch by the person opening the account and what accounts were opened at the same time). There were all sorts of challenge- which Sr. Management got very annoyed about- but to do this there had to be a seperate computer run to look at the data. In this case it was that the data from the imput forms had to be run a second time (weekly) to be able to pull the cross-sell data from what was done. The data entry (centralized) for new accounts was the challange because the system wasn't set up or optimized to collect what was wanted.
What had to happen was the operations department had to pull all the data and then put it onto hard drives- at the time "Bernulie Boxes" which then had to be consolidated and then run separately. The computer side had to do this in what would otherwise be down time...sure, down time...so the time had to be blocked out and, once the data was gathered, multiple drives worth of take had to be run and then the output- printouts had to be made. We had to look at several things but that meant that they had to run the thing at least twice...once for each report...because what we were told we had to know couldn't be done in a single run. Too many variables and it was the relationship between what was being opened vs what was sold vs the ratio of cross sale of accounts/services/products at each time an account was sold/opened.
The result was NOT what the boss wanted. Not because of the cumbersome method of extrating the data- they apparently didn't care what we had to do to gather compile and produce the reports. What they wanted to see was what was the ratios of cross sales.
There was no way short of modifying the existing software -which they were not prepared to do till the concept was proven....and, of course that the new account people were meeting the goals set. So, no, modern computers at the bank in the mid '80s, were not up to the task as the software was written. There was a lot of extra work. It turns out the concept- as understood by the people who demanded it be instituted- wasn't going to work.
Turns out that the traget numbers, which were given to us, came from another bank which had developed the cross-sell program. Oh, they told a good story and that they were doing a massivly good job at cross selling services and accounts. The problem- that the boss didn't know and apparently didn't come across in the presentation of the results of the other bank which gave it at a banking converence - didn't include that this was a limited program to a select bunch of branches in areas of high new account growth from new businesses comming into various urban locations AND each of those branches had special New Account centers in those branches with people trained to add all the bells and whistles and products that could be paired/attached, joined to accounts.
Since we were not operating like that our numbers were "terrible". No where close to what the presenting bank was presenting. We, on the other hand, were doing this with (in the branches in the program) were measuring the number of accounts and services added at thte same time to any new account. So instead of Mr or Mrs NEW customer opening an entire range of NEW accounts at a NEW bank for them, we were also getting any existing customer adding something they wanted/needed but......much of the time it was one or perhaps two new things to an existing and often mature relationship with multiple accounts and services already with the bank.....so they were not candidates for all those auxiliary and related services as they alreay had then. Opps
Back to that old adage about never telling the boss that their higly touted and massivly important project carried a number of fatal flaws....not the least was that it was a case of the other bank was cherry picking where the program was run and NOT dealing with established customers...only people who essentialy transfering entire relationships in blocks of accounts and services.

If you are not asking the right questions or designing somebody else's version of something without knowing the actual parameter of what the other company was doing your are going to look very bad.......bosses NEVER are to be the ones makeing that mistake. Even when they very specifialy tell you what and how to do something along with where you are going to do it, it's NEVER their fault.
Project fail, bosses blame others and go on to something else.....but they sure don't forget that somebody has to be suitably punished for their idea having to be swept under the rug.It's even worse when they have been told and then increase the size and scope of the program. There is a paper trail. They hate that. Particularly when it becomes clear that they ignored the recommenations on what needs to be changed.

Hopefully Merlin and company won't have that problem.
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Re: Computers and the OBS
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:21 pm

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Daryl wrote:People tend to underestimate just how fast even our modern computers are compared to mechanical ones, or even the early electronic ones.
Yes!

My old Palm TX PDA had a 200mhx ARM CPU, 128 megabytes of memory, a 320x480 color screen, and 4GB of external storage on a Secure Digital card. I could carry it in a pocket. It was far more powerful than my first original IBM PC clone.

My current desktop has a quad-core 3.1-3.4 GhZ Intel CPU, I5-2400 CPU, 8GB RAM, Intel HD2000 graphics, and boots Win10 Pro off an SSD, with about 2TB of additional storage on SATA drives. It's low end as such things go, but is an order of magnitude more powerful than the old home built 32 bit desktop it replaced..

Semiconductor electronics gets steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. We tend not to realize just how great an effect that has.

A chap I correspond with elsewhere described upgrading a server he administered, replacing 16TB of SATA drives with 16TB worth of 2TB Samsung SSDs. The machine was a database server. He got an order of magnitude performance increase. The machine screamed through DBMS lookups and updates.

What was significant to me was that prices had dropped to where he could afford to do that. There are a vast number of things that are technically possible with computers, that don't get done because they simply cost too much. Those barriers are falling,and I think we are seeing only the tip of that iceberg.
______
Dennis
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Re: Computers and the OBS
Post by phillies   » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:05 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
Michael wrote:Now using a second AI to hack the Key might be okay IF!! there is no possibility of the second AI communicating electronically to anything outside itself (no radio, bluetooth, etc). Only thing allowed would be basically visual/keyboard communication. Even then it's risky since if it's a another recorded personality (maybe Schuler himself!) it might try to fool people into allowing electronic communication and then hack into all of the IC's stuff (like Owl).
There's a larger risk that would make this a non-starter for the IC.

TextEv earlier has Owl speculating that if the key was encrypted by a high level civilian AI, attempting to hack into it would trigger routines that would wipe the contents. If it was encrypted by a military AI, the response would wipe him, too.

Having a complete second AI which duplicates Owl and having no physical connection between it and anything else when it tried to hack would protect Owl himself. But the most likely outcome would be the destruction of the Key.

The last thing the IC wants to do is destroy the contents of the Key. Unless Owl believes an attempt at hacking has a reasonable chance of actually accessing the data in the Key, there is no way the IC will even think about trying. They have no idea what's in the Key - only that it's too valuable to risk.

And while there may be a recorded personality in the Key, remember that the Key is a memory module, not a computer. That personality would need to be loaded into something like the VR unit Owl made for Narhmann to execute and function. What might it load into if Owl or a clone could access it?

I suspect there may well be a recorded personality in the Key, but the tale Paityr told about how the Key was to be used had the access point the Key was to be plugged into in a room beneath the Temple, so the system it would load into and run on will be one of the things tucked into the Temple's basement.
______
Dennis



If the key is only a memory module it cannot directly hack into anything...no logic ability. And here is a use for mechanical computers, namely if you are sure it won't erase itself -- open bet -- you read the output electromechanically one line at a time and see if you can identify the file type.
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