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Battle of Spindle

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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by munroburton   » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:34 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Could the Mk 23-E be used in conjunction with Mistletoe to localize leaking transmissions from a stealthy MA ship? Then 23-Es that are in optimum positions, can be directed to triangulated points in space much like the special torpedo Spock made to find that cloaked Romulan vessel.

It seems to me that recon drones would be much better suited to such a search; as they are designed to be longer lived and more stealthy. But how would you ever know where or when to start? Space is really BIG! Also Mistletoe is a recon drone with a warhead (nothing wrong with that), so they might work better with other recon drones.

PS. I lost nearly all interest in Star Trek after the first season, at that point it was a multiyear mission to find women for Captain Kirk.


The 23-E is superior to the recon drone in one respect - acceleration. In a hypothetical situation where a ship has no sensor coverage of some distant volume of space and urgently needs it, a 23-E could head straight for it, building up as much as .8c in only nine minutes if necessary.

A recon drone at 10,000g would need around 40 minutes to reach that velocity or ~80 minutes at 5,000g. So the 23-E(or a buckshot spread of them) could provide some information quicker, at the expense of this information only being a snapshot(like New Horizons passing Ultima Thule).
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by tlb   » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:29 pm

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cthia wrote:Could the Mk 23-E be used in conjunction with Mistletoe to localize leaking transmissions from a stealthy MA ship? Then 23-Es that are in optimum positions, can be directed to triangulated points in space much like the special torpedo Spock made to find that cloaked Romulan vessel.

tlb wrote:It seems to me that recon drones would be much better suited to such a search; as they are designed to be longer lived and more stealthy. But how would you ever know where or when to start? Space is really BIG! Also Mistletoe is a recon drone with a warhead (nothing wrong with that), so they might work better with other recon drones.

munroburton wrote:The 23-E is superior to the recon drone in one respect - acceleration. In a hypothetical situation where a ship has no sensor coverage of some distant volume of space and urgently needs it, a 23-E could head straight for it, building up as much as .8c in only nine minutes if necessary.

A recon drone at 10,000g would need around 40 minutes to reach that velocity or ~80 minutes at 5,000g. So the 23-E(or a buckshot spread of them) could provide some information quicker, at the expense of this information only being a snapshot(like New Horizons passing Ultima Thule).

There is a major economic problem with using the MK23-E for anything but its intended use. So far as we know, Apollo comes in a pod with the E as a controlling missile and 8 subordinate missiles; if you fire the E by itself, then there are 8 missiles that are orphaned. Until the MK23-E is supplied as a standalone missile (which I do not foresee), then all 9 must be fired together. So using Apollo for anything, except to attack the enemy, is hideously expensive.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:48 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Could the Mk 23-E be used in conjunction with Mistletoe to localize leaking transmissions from a stealthy MA ship? Then 23-Es that are in optimum positions, can be directed to triangulated points in space much like the special torpedo Spock made to find that cloaked Romulan vessel.

tlb wrote:It seems to me that recon drones would be much better suited to such a search; as they are designed to be longer lived and more stealthy. But how would you ever know where or when to start? Space is really BIG! Also Mistletoe is a recon drone with a warhead (nothing wrong with that), so they might work better with other recon drones.

munroburton wrote:The 23-E is superior to the recon drone in one respect - acceleration. In a hypothetical situation where a ship has no sensor coverage of some distant volume of space and urgently needs it, a 23-E could head straight for it, building up as much as .8c in only nine minutes if necessary.

A recon drone at 10,000g would need around 40 minutes to reach that velocity or ~80 minutes at 5,000g. So the 23-E(or a buckshot spread of them) could provide some information quicker, at the expense of this information only being a snapshot(like New Horizons passing Ultima Thule).

There is a major economic problem with using the MK23-E for anything but its intended use. So far as we know, Apollo comes in a pod with the E as a controlling missile and 8 subordinate missiles; if you fire the E by itself, then there are 8 missiles that are orphaned. Until the MK23-E is supplied as a standalone missile (which I do not foresee), then all 9 must be fired together. So using Apollo for anything, except to attack the enemy, is hideously expensive.


Oops, @ munroburton. Nice post.

That is extremely interesting, because early on I imagined a "shell" of just 23-Es being deployed to "box in" a particular area. Like playing fox and geese. I like the notion of a "buckshot" spread of them. I know they're expensive, but, paraphrasing Honor, the cost of a ship dwarfs them. And lives are irreplaceable. I refer to tricks of this nature as "situational tactics." Providence.

And, of course, :roll: , no hardware is worth more than our heroine.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:05 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:Could the Mk 23-E be used in conjunction with Mistletoe to localize leaking transmissions from a stealthy MA ship? Then 23-Es that are in optimum positions, can be directed to triangulated points in space much like the special torpedo Spock made to find that cloaked Romulan vessel.

tlb wrote:It seems to me that recon drones would be much better suited to such a search; as they are designed to be longer lived and more stealthy. But how would you ever know where or when to start? Space is really BIG! Also Mistletoe is a recon drone with a warhead (nothing wrong with that), so they might work better with other recon drones.

munroburton wrote:The 23-E is superior to the recon drone in one respect - acceleration. In a hypothetical situation where a ship has no sensor coverage of some distant volume of space and urgently needs it, a 23-E could head straight for it, building up as much as .8c in only nine minutes if necessary.

A recon drone at 10,000g would need around 40 minutes to reach that velocity or ~80 minutes at 5,000g. So the 23-E(or a buckshot spread of them) could provide some information quicker, at the expense of this information only being a snapshot(like New Horizons passing Ultima Thule).

There is a major economic problem with using the MK23-E for anything but its intended use. So far as we know, Apollo comes in a pod with the E as a controlling missile and 8 subordinate missiles; if you fire the E by itself, then there are 8 missiles that are orphaned. Until the MK23-E is supplied as a standalone missile (which I do not foresee), then all 9 must be fired together. So using Apollo for anything, except to attack the enemy, is hideously expensive.

I disagree. We have at least two occasions where the normal clump of 8 missiles was changed. Remember Honor's demonstration salvo of 3 pirouetting missiles? Remember in Honor at The Bat :D she only fired 60 missiles at Tourville's? ship. Suggesting one clump of only 6. All of the missiles are relatively expensive, almost extinct st one point, so I'd imagine it's a fairly automated process to fire even a single missile. Why waste 8 if only 1 is needed. Especially if you're firing on a planet. You don't want to have to fire all 8 at a planet because they don't lay down their arms when you control the orbitals.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by tlb   » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:32 pm

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cthia wrote:I disagree. We have at least two occasions where the normal clump of 8 missiles was changed. Remember Honor's demonstration salvo of 3 pirouetting missiles? Remember in Honor at The Bat she only fired 60 missiles at Tourville's? ship. Suggesting one clump of only 6. All of the missiles are relatively expensive, almost extinct st one point, so I'd imagine it's a fairly automated process to fire even a single missile. Why waste 8 if only 1 is needed. Especially if you're firing on a planet. You don't want to have to fire all 8 at a planet because they don't lay down their arms when you control the orbitals.

I assume that you are referring to this:
His point defense crews managed to nail two-thirds of them, despite the totality of the tactical surprise they'd achieved. The other twenty pirouetted, swerved to one side, then detonated in a perfectly synchronized, deadly accurate attack . . . on absolutely nothing.

That need not mean that there were exactly 60 in the flight, since it is unlikely that Tourville would express the fraction as 43/63. Why would the RMN ever set up a pod to leave 3 missiles unused and drifting around in space?

At the time of the battle of Manticore there was no shortage. Why would you use Apollo to fire on a planet??
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by munroburton   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:31 am

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tlb wrote:There is a major economic problem with using the MK23-E for anything but its intended use. So far as we know, Apollo comes in a pod with the E as a controlling missile and 8 subordinate missiles; if you fire the E by itself, then there are 8 missiles that are orphaned. Until the MK23-E is supplied as a standalone missile (which I do not foresee), then all 9 must be fired together. So using Apollo for anything, except to attack the enemy, is hideously expensive.


It's incredibly expensive compared to the recon drone(which usually recovers itself for repeat use). But it's not a major economic problem - they cram a thousand pods into each SD(P) and these don't wander around alone or unescorted.

Michelle Henke already pioneered the technique of firing a single pod early and another one late during large salvos for even more pre and post strike data. This is a slight variation of that.

Mind you, if I was only in a cruiser with a limited set of towed pods, I wouldn't be wasting any like this. If this kind of "burst" speed is useful to recon drones, I would expect R&D to eventually figure out how to attach a missile-style drive or two to an otherwise ordinary recon drone without removing its high-endurance drive.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:23 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I disagree. We have at least two occasions where the normal clump of 8 missiles was changed. Remember Honor's demonstration salvo of 3 pirouetting missiles? Remember in Honor at The Bat she only fired 60 missiles at Tourville's? ship. Suggesting one clump of only 6. All of the missiles are relatively expensive, almost extinct st one point, so I'd imagine it's a fairly automated process to fire even a single missile. Why waste 8 if only 1 is needed. Especially if you're firing on a planet. You don't want to have to fire all 8 at a planet because they don't lay down their arms when you control the orbitals.

I assume that you are referring to this:
His point defense crews managed to nail two-thirds of them, despite the totality of the tactical surprise they'd achieved. The other twenty pirouetted, swerved to one side, then detonated in a perfectly synchronized, deadly accurate attack . . . on absolutely nothing.

That need not mean that there were exactly 60 in the flight, since it is unlikely that Tourville would express the fraction as 43/63. Why would the RMN ever set up a pod to leave 3 missiles unused and drifting around in space?

At the time of the battle of Manticore there was no shortage. Why would you use Apollo to fire on a planet??


Rereading At All Costs, textev says one pattern of pods. Less than 60 missiles. So I misread. My apologies.

At All Costs wrote:The ops officer punched a macro, and Chin frowned as an additional cluster of impeller signatures blinked into existence. For some reason known only to itself and God, the Manty task force ahead of them had just fired another pattern of pods—one pattern of pods, with less than sixty missiles in it.


If Apollo missiles are the only ordnance left when controlling the orbitals and a point needs to be made, why fire a complete pattern of pods? Why fire an Mk 23-E, for that matter, in situations where they aren't needed? When well within sub light distances—like firing on a pirate, or the need to fire a single warning shot across the bow—why waste a control missile simply because Apollo missiles are the only ordnance left? Surely I'm missing something.

Late edit:

IINM, there was a shortage of Apollo birds during the BoM, and they were all given to Eighth Fleet except the few McKeon had.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by tlb   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:51 am

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cthia wrote:IINM, there was a shortage of Apollo birds during the BoM, and they were all given to Eighth Fleet except the few McKeon had.

Sorry, but no; production lines were still being ramped up, but the main shortage was in ships that could handle Apollo - Eigth Fleet had a monopoly of those (which included McKeon ship. He was through the wormhole early, so got attached to a group already at Manticore).

Here is the text from At All Costs:
chapter 52 wrote:Hamish replied. "One thing that's changed is that Eighth Fleet's had longer to receive munitions and train with them. We've got a few new wrinkles we think are going to make our ships considerably more effective, and the additional training time will stand Eighth Fleet in good stead. However, at this time, Eighth Fleet is the only formation we've got which is fully trained with the new weapons. It's also the only formation that's equipped with the new weapons, because only the Invictuses and the Graysons' late-flight Harringtons—" he smiled wryly at the class name, despite his somber mood "—can operate them without refitting."
"Why is that?" Grantville asked. "I thought the pods were the same dimensions?"
"They are, but only the ships built with Keyhole capability from the outset can handle the Mark Two platforms, and they're essential to making the new missiles work. We can refit with Keyhole II—in fact, the decision to build that in is part of what's delayed the Andermani refits—but it requires placing the ship in yard hands for at least eight to ten weeks. And, frankly, we can't stand down our existing ships that long when we're this tightly strapped. All our new construction is being altered on the ways to be Keyhole II-capable, and when it starts coming into commission, we can probably start pulling the older ships back for refit.
"But at the moment, only Eighth Fleet is really equipped to handle them, and even they have only partial loadouts on the new pods. We're attempting to get into full production on them as quickly as possible, but we've hit some bottlenecks, and security issues have restricted the number of production facilities we could commit to them."

chapter 60 wrote:"Of course," Caparelli agreed. "First, we have no intention of sending you in without thoroughly scouting the system ahead of time.
"Second, we're getting a handle on the production bottlenecks we've been experiencing. We're going to have a lot more of the Mistletoe-modified drones available, starting in about three weeks, and production of the Apollo pods and control platforms is beginning to accelerate, as well. We've got enough now to completely re-ammunition your command and began establishing a modest stockpile to support your operations. The system-defense version is still lagging; we won't be able to begin deploying those pods for another couple of months. But things are definitely looking up on the offensive front.
"Third, we intend to support any attack on Jouett by shotgunning them with feints all over their inner perimeter. We're going to be scouting every system we can, and after what happened in Lovat, they aren't going to be able to disregard any scouting operation. Hopefully, that will induce them to spread their defenses thinner.
"Fourth, your battle plan will be designed from the beginning from the perspective of breaking off the attack and withdrawing if the opposition seems tougher than our threat analyses have projected. In other words, this won't be any sort of all-costs target, Your Grace. It's an operation we want to succeed; not one we need to succeed, and your instructions would reflect that."

So the system defense version of Apollo had not been deployed, but Honor's fleet was fully equipped. At the time of BOM, there was no shortage of Apollo missiles for the ships that could control them.
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:08 pm

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Notwithstanding your point about ships available to handle Apollo, I seem to recall a serious initial bottleneck. In fact, the Peeps plan was to attack before the Manties could get the new fangled system widely deployed.

My take on storyline, was there were only enough Apollo missiles to arm Honor's command and for modest resupply logistics. Regardless that all ships that could handle Apollo were given to Honor. The supply lines were getting cranked up, but that isn't to say there was a gluttonous supply of them available. In fact, there really was a shortage of them considering that was one of the selling points Eloise had in her offer of an Alliance -- that the RMN could save those god-awful missiles for a more arrogant opponent, let's say.

Although I must admit, tlb, Honor didn't fire on Chin's Fleet as if there was, somewhat, a shortage of them. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Battle of Spindle
Post by tlb   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:05 pm

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cthia wrote:Notwithstanding your point about ships available to handle Apollo, I seem to recall a serious initial bottleneck. In fact, the Peeps plan was to attack before the Manties could get the new fangled system widely deployed.

My take on storyline, was there were only enough Apollo missiles to arm Honor's command and for modest resupply logistics. Regardless that all ships that could handle Apollo were given to Honor. The supply lines were getting cranked up, but that isn't to say there was a gluttonous supply of them available. In fact, there really was a shortage of them considering that was one of the selling points Eloise had in her offer of an Alliance -- that the RMN could save those god-awful missiles for a more arrogant opponent, let's say.

Although I must admit, tlb, Honor didn't fire on Chin's Fleet as if there was, somewhat, a shortage of them. LOL

We agree that Honor had the only ships that could handle Apollo and there were sufficient missiles for her operations; but there was not a huge excess as the supply lines were still getting cranked up.

Yes, the plan by Haven was to strike before Apollo was in general fleet use; but that importantly goes to the requirement to convert ships to be able to operate the Keyhole II installation - not necessarily the missile supply. The production lines were expected to be at full speed when the additional ships finally came out of the yards.

But do not conflate this period with the shortages at the time Eloise made the offer of an Alliance; because that came after the Yawata Strike, when there were missile shortages of all types due to the destruction of the production lines. It would be interesting to know how many they had in magazines, depots, ammo ships and other stockpiles that were not touched by the strike. Also there should have been shoals of the system defense variant of Apollo that were not affected by the strike (except for possible debris damage).

I think it is a misnomer to call the forces of Eloise's Haven "Peeps", since this is after the restoration of the constitution. I do not believe the new government called itself the "People's Republic of Haven", but I could easily be wrong.
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