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Rape Successful?

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Rape Successful?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:38 am

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Okay, thinking about why I was not a fan of OBS got me wondering how certain events could have turned out differently.

Would you have remained a fan of the Honor Harrington series if Pavel Young had succeeded in raping Honor Harrington (drugged her as well as Nimitz?) or if the State Sec goons hadnt backed off in IEH?

My guess is that everone would have viewed David Weber as the new John Norman and he would have been a commercial success but not respected.
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:47 am

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Very good question. I brought the notion up myself somewhere in the Honor, Nimitz and Pavel Young thread, iinm.

I believe that the author would have had an impossible time keeping Honor from killing him afterwards. And he would have become a definite Treecat enemy, not just a nuisance. We all know what is said about a Treecat enemy.

So, Weber took it as far as he could without making it too personal - to Honor and Nimitz and the other 'Cats. There would have been a Treecat APB put out on his head.

Memory Singer: <Be on the lookout for this image and this mindglow. Shred on contact!>

<I can't call it off Honor. It's out of my hands now. All of my hands!>

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:06 pm

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The only way Pavel Young would have raped Honor was if he was another Meyerdahl Mod or if he had drugged her. Either of those outcomes would have taken the choice of responses out of Honor's hands. Either she would have been physically assaulted or drugged. Both outcomes would leave enough traces to be evidence in a prosecution. At that point Raoul Courvoisier would have brought charges against Young. Period. The story would have been different after that.

The current story has Honor restraining her darker nature with principles she sets upon herself. Her response to Young was part and parcel with her fundamental code. Her belief of what she should have done was stronger than any external suggestion to the contrary. Yes, she was misguided, but she stayed true to her desire to restrain her Salamander. As she matured she had a better set of dos and don'ts with which to shackle her demons. Her iron will, though misdirected, was with her from the start. Altering the story so that the choice would have been taken from her would not have highlighted her stubborn strength as it did. Yes, that would have changed the story for the worse, not for what she would have suffered but for what would not have been so nicely foreshadowed.

As for the State Sec goons, there was no way they would have had voluntary relations with her. They would have had to knock her out first. She accepted that they could and would kill any of her crew at will. Demanding her submission wouldn't improve that and would likely make things worse. She can either endure or submit. Allowing herself to be violated would be submitting. Not going to happen. Had she been drugged and violated, that's just one more bit of physical torture not submission.

So long as Honor did not submit to the State Sec goons, the story would not have changed for me.
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:48 pm

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Would it have been a deal breaker for me? Hard to say. It depends on the actual story as it is written. How much detail the author put in. How perverted Young got? What mood I'm before the story.

Having said that, it could have been written where I personally tossed the book before ever finishing it. Never to return to it again. Had I been able to trudge through it, I would have felt the same helplessness for Honor as I would feel for any other woman in real life when around her. I don't know how many of you have ever interacted with a rape victim, but it is difficult not to pity them, certainly if they were close to you. And oftentimes it comes quite difficult to interact with them again with the same ease, because of the inability to look them in the eye. My flavor of emotional investment in life could or would have carried that same impediment into fiction for me. Until Honor killed the bastard I suppose. I felt the same helplessness for Mai-ling Jackson and again for Mercedes Brigham - who although was stronger couldn't help the much weaker Mai-ling, but had to listen to the sordid torture until the end. Every time I come across Mercedes' name I flash back to that. Don't you? I wouldn't want to be flashing back to that every time I come across my heroine. Or have it in the back of my mind, where it certainly would be.

Besides, rape victims are victims of double crimes. The one society poses on them in many ways may be harsher.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:57 pm

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cthia wrote:Would it have been a deal breaker for me? Hard to say. It depends on the actual story as it is written. How much detail the author put in. How perverted Young got? What mood I'm before the story.

Having said that, it could have been written where I personally tossed the book before ever finishing it. Never to return to it again. Had I been able to trudge through it, I would have felt the same helplessness for Honor as I would feel for any other woman in real life when around her. I don't know how many of you have ever interacted with a rape victim, but it is difficult not to pity them, certainly if they were close to you. And oftentimes it comes quite difficult to interact with them again with the same ease, because of the inability to look them in the eye. My flavor of emotional investment in life could or would have carried that same impediment into fiction for me. Until Honor killed the bastard I suppose. I felt the same helplessness for Mai-ling Jackson and again for Mercedes Brigham - who although was stronger couldn't help the much weaker Mai-ling, but had to listen to the sordid torture until the end. Every time I come across Mercedes' name I flash back to that. Don't you? I wouldn't want to be flashing back to that every time I come across my heroine. Or have it in the back of my mind, where it certainly would be.

Besides, rape victims are victims of double crimes. The one society poses on them in many ways may be harsher.


The rapes of Mail Ling and Mercedes were endurable only because they were not major characters. Weber does an excellent job portraying Mercedes Bringham coping with the aftermath and continuing her career. It might not have been doable if she had been the central character.

I suspect that if Pavel had succeeded in raping Honor, Nimitz would have killed him even if Honor had not. It would be interesting to see how the legal system would have coped with that.
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:59 pm

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cthia wrote:Very good question. I brought the notion up myself somewhere in the Honor, Nimitz and Pavel Young thread, iinm.

I believe that the author would have had an impossible time keeping Honor from killing him afterwards. And he would have become a definite Treecat enemy, not just a nuisance. We all know what is said about a Treecat enemy.

So, Weber took it as far as he could without making it too personal - to Honor and Nimitz and the other 'Cats. There would have been a Treecat APB put out on his head.

Memory Singer: <Be on the lookout for this image and this mindglow. Shred on contact!>

<I can't call it off Honor. It's out of my hands now. All of my hands!>


You saying the treecats would have killed Weber For writing that scene?
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:38 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The only way Pavel Young would have raped Honor was if he was another Meyerdahl Mod or if he had drugged her. Either of those outcomes would have taken the choice of responses out of Honor's hands. Either she would have been physically assaulted or drugged. Both outcomes would leave enough traces to be evidence in a prosecution. At that point Raoul Courvoisier would have brought charges against Young. Period. The story would have been different after that.

What is the RMN policy on dueling at the academy? I am not sure that it would get to the point of charges and a trial.
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:24 pm

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tlb wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The only way Pavel Young would have raped Honor was if he was another Meyerdahl Mod or if he had drugged her. Either of those outcomes would have taken the choice of responses out of Honor's hands. Either she would have been physically assaulted or drugged. Both outcomes would leave enough traces to be evidence in a prosecution. At that point Raoul Courvoisier would have brought charges against Young. Period. The story would have been different after that.

What is the RMN policy on dueling at the academy? I am not sure that it would get to the point of charges and a trial.

Yes, it would have. Courvoisier is in loco parentis to his students in many instances. Had there been evidence of violence done to a rape victim, Courvoisier would have brought charges on his own authority. Regardless of what Honor wanted, he would have charged Young with aggravated rape. The only reason Courvoisier did not charge Young was the only physical evidence available pointed to Young being assaulted. He needed Honor's testimony to charge Young.
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:39 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The only way Pavel Young would have raped Honor was if he was another Meyerdahl Mod or if he had drugged her. Either of those outcomes would have taken the choice of responses out of Honor's hands. Either she would have been physically assaulted or drugged. Both outcomes would leave enough traces to be evidence in a prosecution. At that point Raoul Courvoisier would have brought charges against Young. Period. The story would have been different after that.

tlb wrote:What is the RMN policy on dueling at the academy? I am not sure that it would get to the point of charges and a trial.

PeterZ wrote:Yes, it would have. Courvoisier is in loco parentis to his students in many instances. Had there been evidence of violence done to a rape victim, Courvoisier would have brought charges on his own authority. Regardless of what Honor wanted, he would have charged Young with aggravated rape. The only reason Courvoisier did not charge Young was the only physical evidence available pointed to Young being assaulted. He needed Honor's testimony to charge Young.

You make it sound as though I was saying that Honor would not want Pavel to face charges. Instead I was suggesting that Honor would have challenged him to a duel immediately, provided that academy and RMN rules allowed it. Otherwise it would of course have gone to trial.
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Re: Rape Successful?
Post by kzt   » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:42 pm

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tlb wrote:You make it sound as though I was saying that Honor would not want Pavel to face charges. Instead I was suggesting that Honor would have challenged him to a duel immediately, provided that academy and RMN rules allowed it. Otherwise it would of course have gone to trial.

Not then.
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