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The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten

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The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:39 pm

cthia
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I'm enjoying the movie USS Indiannapolis: Men of Courage.

This is another movie that makes me go hmm. I always wondered why Honorverse warfare didn't include sneaking ships into a system to watch for freighters carrying the latest technology received from inside intel, just as the Indiannapolis had orders to deliver the A-bomb (in two pieces) overseas, unescorted so as not to call attention to itself.

They were up against Kaitens, manned enemy kamizaze missiles launched from subs. Could the MA introduce manned missiles in the same way that the Japanese used kamikaze Kaiten submarines? If designed properly, could it substitute for the lack of FTL controlled missiles.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Theemile   » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:42 pm

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cthia wrote:I'm enjoying the movie USS Indiannapolis: Men of Courage.

This is another movie that makes me go hmm. I always wondered why Honorverse warfare didn't include sneaking ships into a system to watch for freighters carrying the latest technology received from inside intel, just as the Indiannapolis had orders to deliver the A-bomb (in two pieces) overseas, unescorted so as not to call attention to itself.

They were up against Kaitens, manned enemy kamizaze missiles launched from subs. Could the MA introduce manned missiles in the same way that the Japanese used kamikaze Kaiten submarines? If designed properly, could it substitute for the lack of FTL controlled missiles.



How could a man survive 46,000 Gs of acceleration?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:I'm enjoying the movie USS Indiannapolis: Men of Courage.

This is another movie that makes me go hmm. I always wondered why Honorverse warfare didn't include sneaking ships into a system to watch for freighters carrying the latest technology received from inside intel, just as the Indiannapolis had orders to deliver the A-bomb (in two pieces) overseas, unescorted so as not to call attention to itself.

They were up against Kaitens, manned enemy kamizaze missiles launched from subs. Could the MA introduce manned missiles in the same way that the Japanese used kamikaze Kaiten submarines? If designed properly, could it substitute for the lack of FTL controlled missiles.



How could a man survive 46,000 Gs of acceleration?

Gonna have to ask the Malign that one, or why a man in the cockpit would be more effective than a computer.

But! Perhaps along with special suits, the MA has designed humans to withstand the acceleration by crossing them with certain creatures who may have the ability. It's the notion that interests me, along with the unshakeable notion of giving MA ships a kamikaze factor.

Slagless DNA. Mere accel can't turn these inhumans into slag.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:27 pm

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Sea creatures withstand enormous pressures that humans can only dream of. Can the MA design humans who can exist in a special liquid inside a tank designed to blunt g-forces? Or Kaiten missiles limited in accel until the human inputs the final coordinates? Took a minute to find it but I came across this article some time ago.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:15 am

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Why not design kamikazes? It's not like they will ever run in short supply. Just pull the lever and speed up the assembly line. BuPers never had it so good.

Malign Kamikaze - Iteration 47.

MK - 47: A LINE BORN TO DIE

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Daryl   » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:12 am

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We are already encountering this in OTL. A well designed car with seat belts, and air bags can mitigate the sudden G forces in a collision up to a point. However people are being found dead without a mark on them, the body and skin stopped as designed but the heart and lungs continued until they hit the chest wall.
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:08 am

cthia
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Daryl wrote:We are already encountering this in OTL. A well designed car with seat belts, and air bags can mitigate the sudden G forces in a collision up to a point. However people are being found dead without a mark on them, the body and skin stopped as designed but the heart and lungs continued until they hit the chest wall.

I think the MAlign can develop a much better system. Remember, if the body is encased in a liquid the liquid dampens the force of gravity. Much like the planet's natural shield disperses harmful radiation. If this liquid is a specially formulated liquid close to the density of human tissue, and if that human tissue is genetically altered for this in mind along with other genetic changes, and if the cockpit itself becomes a part of the equation, then manned missiles may be on the horizon.

Theemile wrote:How could a man survive 46,000 Gs of acceleration?
cthia wrote:Gonna have to ask the Malign that one, or why a man in the cockpit would be more effective than a computer.


Why would a man in the cockpit of a missile be more effective than a computer? Did the answer come out of the movie Iron Man (2008)? . . .

IRON MAN (2008)

"The future of air combat. [missile combat] Is it manned or unmanned? I tell you, in my experience, no unmanned aerial vehicle will ever trump a pilot's instinct, his insight, that ability to look into a situation beyond the obvious and discern its outcome, or a pilot's judgement."


If the MAlign does simulate the tactic used by the Japanese Kaiten submarine, ballistic missiles launched at infrastructure has the benefit of last minute decisions made by a human brain. If those missiles in Oyster Bay had been manned, they could have avoided the tugs ability to intercept. Manned missiles launched at a planet suddenly gives new meaning to this thread.

And they're using the force.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by aairfccha   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:11 am

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cthia wrote:Remember, if the body is encased in a liquid the liquid dampens the force of gravity. Much like the planet's natural shield disperses harmful radiation.
:cry: No, this is not how buoyancy and immersion anti-g work. At all.

cthia wrote:If this liquid is a specially formulated liquid close to the density of human tissue,
While the soft and squishy stuff in our bodies has more or less the same density, bones have about twice that - at the high accelerations of an impeller missile this is in all likelihood no longer negligible. Also you would end up with a considerable pressure and pressure difference through the body: half a metre of water column at an acceleration of 40000 g creates about 2000 bar.

cthia wrote:If those missiles in Oyster Bay had been manned, they could have avoided the tugs ability to intercept.
Between the sluggish reaction speed of biology and the time constraints imposed by a relativistic approach velocity, this conclusion sounds a little... thin. Also, did the tugs actually intercept the missiles? I only remember them stopping bits and pieces of the stations. In contrast, the Hasta drones in UH tried to dodge the block ships but mostly didn't manage to.
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by tlb   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:22 am

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aairfccha wrote:
cthia wrote:Remember, if the body is encased in a liquid the liquid dampens the force of gravity. Much like the planet's natural shield disperses harmful radiation.
:cry: No, this is not how buoyancy and immersion anti-g work. At all.

cthia wrote:If this liquid is a specially formulated liquid close to the density of human tissue,
While the soft and squishy stuff in our bodies has more or less the same density, bones have about twice that - at the high accelerations of an impeller missile this is in all likelihood no longer negligible. Also you would end up with a considerable pressure and pressure difference through the body: half a metre of water column at an acceleration of 40000 g creates about 2000 bar.

cthia wrote:If those missiles in Oyster Bay had been manned, they could have avoided the tugs ability to intercept.
Between the sluggish reaction speed of biology and the time constraints imposed by a relativistic approach velocity, this conclusion sounds a little... thin. Also, did the tugs actually intercept the missiles? I only remember them stopping bits and pieces of the stations. In contrast, the Hasta drones in UH tried to dodge the block ships but mostly didn't manage to.

There have been SF stories written about pilots enclosed in a liquid filled egg, with their lungs filled with another liquid that can transport oxygen and carbon dioxide. I believe what this ignores is both the heart beat and the chest movement for breathing. There is also the problem that the brain can move around in the cranium, so a shock can result in a concussion.

It is possible to mechanically aid the chest movement to force that liquid in and out (like the "iron lung"), but the heart might have to be replaced by a pump to work in a pressurized liquid environment. If the fluid surrounding the body were non-Newtonian would that help against shock?

But as pointed out, other things within the body can move about with the possible result of cell damage or internal bleeding.

Kaiten: literal translation: "Return to Heaven", commonly rendered as "turn of the Heaven's will" or "the heaven shaker" (from Wikipedia).
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:58 pm

cthia
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Nice points, tlb.

First off, we are all focusing on the problems of current humanity in the Sol system to withstand acceleration. Would these limitations exist, as is, throughout the Honorverse? Does, say, humans from a high G world have a higher tolerance for accel because of denser bodies?

I'm positing that specially designed liquids can seal a man off from the full effects of acceleration. This system would work in tandem with genetically altered humans to withstand higher accelerations. I recall one of my friends mentioning an experiment where cockroaches are raised in varying levels of oxygen - 5:55 - 9:00 minutes into clip. The higher oxygen level bugs grew very large, giving their bodies much more room to put muscles, stuff.

Genetically altered humans can be made denser, perhaps even their brains encased in a thicker environment in conjunction with being encased in a specially formulated liquid and tank. The MA tackles problems from the other end. Any such kamikaze may only have to exist for short periods of time. Indeed, ballistic launches don't even have to come anywhere near 46 Gs of accel over a period of days.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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