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Wormholes & the New Solaruan League

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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by stewart   » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:21 pm

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TangoLima wrote:How soon does the NSL get access to the WH network back ?
It will have to be at the least after a peace treaty and
the New Constitution. Will there be restrictions maybe a
gradual implementation ?


--------------

Meanwhile, back at the original thread question....

Likely first a provisional then a semi-functioning new government and constitution for the NSL -- subject to ratification and acceptable implementation.

Restrictions would likely be in the form of Junction usage fees (think tariffs) which rise or fall in response to behavior (Pavlov's pups anyone)

I can see merchant ships only, at least initially, with NSL small escorts as anti-piracy at a future milepost.

The Peace Treaty would (could/should) include those aspects, but that is a later discussion.

-- Stewart
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:41 pm

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stewart wrote:
TangoLima wrote:How soon does the NSL get access to the WH network back ?
It will have to be at the least after a peace treaty and
the New Constitution. Will there be restrictions maybe a
gradual implementation ?


--------------

Meanwhile, back at the original thread question....

Likely first a provisional then a semi-functioning new government and constitution for the NSL -- subject to ratification and acceptable implementation.

Restrictions would likely be in the form of Junction usage fees (think tariffs) which rise or fall in response to behavior (Pavlov's pups anyone)

I can see merchant ships only, at least initially, with NSL small escorts as anti-piracy at a future milepost.

The Peace Treaty would (could/should) include those aspects, but that is a later discussion.

-- Stewart


I foresee a lot of negotiations. The League will want the junctions immediately and the GA might hold up a bit. There might be a transitional period where both get paid somewhat until a real peace is made.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:31 pm

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A better question is how many wormhole bridges are owned by League Members and how many are owned by independent systems.

There were a number of systems which were, if not Protectorates, under some obligation to OFS (and the League) and were required to pay a portion of their wormhole fees to OFS-like Junker. That doesn't begin to cover places where the local government was kept in power under threat of OFS intervention.

Setting wormhole fees is going to be a functional of who owns what and who makes helpfull treaties and agreements with those owners. Just like Manticore has a set of fees for Manticorian flagged ships and another for those (varies by who) who are allies of various sorts or have other treaty obligations. Also known as a system of levels of "Most Favored Nation Status". Grayson ships may pay the same as Manticorian flagged shops. Haven....no idea yet.
Part of that was one of the things driving systems to support Manticore in the fight with the SL.

Would need a list of fees, I don't think we are going to get one :)
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:11 pm

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kzt wrote:As the SEM is kind of in desperate need of revenue they should accept whatever figleaf they can. They are trying to rebuild what has been described as decades of gross system product. So they need a loan for several years if GSP, which is going to be a killer without income.

Oh, right I forgot. No, everyone in Haven and Beowulf just agreed to donate a hundred thousand Manticoran dollars per person because they will all want to show their endless love of Manticore. Nobody will blame Manticore for killing millions of their friends and family members.



I do not believe that the actual value or cost of the infrastructure is equal to decades worth of system GDP.

I can not yet find the total market capitalization but her as a link to a list of the largest NASDQcompanies.

https://www.nasdaq.com/screening/compan ... nge=NASDAQ

Total market capitalization is about $7 Trillion or 1/3 of US annual GDP.

A good economic model suggests that the value of the SKM infrastructure is may be one year GDP. How much you bet that the Crown's foreign cash reserves will cover it.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by stewart   » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:37 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:A better question is how many wormhole bridges are owned by League Members and how many are owned by independent systems.

There were a number of systems which were, if not Protectorates, under some obligation to OFS (and the League) and were required to pay a portion of their wormhole fees to OFS-like Junker. That doesn't begin to cover places where the local government was kept in power under threat of OFS intervention.

Setting wormhole fees is going to be a functional of who owns what and who makes helpfull treaties and agreements with those owners. Just like Manticore has a set of fees for Manticorian flagged ships and another for those (varies by who) who are allies of various sorts or have other treaty obligations. Also known as a system of levels of "Most Favored Nation Status". Grayson ships may pay the same as Manticorian flagged shops. Haven....no idea yet.
Part of that was one of the things driving systems to support Manticore in the fight with the SL.

Would need a list of fees, I don't think we are going to get one :)



-----------------

Not that we don't get into complex discussions here or anything, but now the question of what goods/services/specie/barter currency would be charged for wormhole/warp bridge passage. The Solaran Credit, previously the reliable currency, has taken a value hit. The NSL "might" not like paying in Grayson Austins or Mantie Dollars. There will be further "animated discussions" on the tendered currency or credits

-- Stewart
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by Erls   » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:51 pm

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I think the pace at which the wormholes located in the SL are returned to SL usage/ownership will be based upon the system governments each WH is located in. The reason being, I am 99% certain that Manticore is going to demand as part of the peace that the SL renounce in perpetuity any claim of ownership over wormholes located within its borders. The SL will have to renounce the ability to levy tariffs on the wormholes, however will be allowed to have SL flagged ships use them for free and require member nations to give a 'Most Favored Nation' status to all other SL members.

In short, Manticore is going to demand that ownership of the wormholes be transferred to the systems in which they are located. If those system governments meet certain requirements, Manticore will transfer control of the wormhole back to that system. Depending upon the location and value to the SEM of that particular bridge, Manticore will likely negotiate an economic treaty of one sort or another for that system's shipping and SEM shipping. The more important the bridge is to the SEM's network, the better deal the system gets.

And, of course, there will probably be various deals made regarding the SEMs obligations to defend the local ownership of a wormhole as well as the SEMs rights to re-take control in the event the local system (or SL) does certain things.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by tlb   » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:05 pm

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Erls wrote:I think the pace at which the wormholes located in the SL are returned to SL usage/ownership will be based upon the system governments each WH is located in. The reason being, I am 99% certain that Manticore is going to demand as part of the peace that the SL renounce in perpetuity any claim of ownership over wormholes located within its borders. The SL will have to renounce the ability to levy tariffs on the wormholes, however will be allowed to have SL flagged ships use them for free and require member nations to give a 'Most Favored Nation' status to all other SL members.

In short, Manticore is going to demand that ownership of the wormholes be transferred to the systems in which they are located. If those system governments meet certain requirements, Manticore will transfer control of the wormhole back to that system. Depending upon the location and value to the SEM of that particular bridge, Manticore will likely negotiate an economic treaty of one sort or another for that system's shipping and SEM shipping. The more important the bridge is to the SEM's network, the better deal the system gets.

And, of course, there will probably be various deals made regarding the SEMs obligations to defend the local ownership of a wormhole as well as the SEMs rights to re-take control in the event the local system (or SL) does certain things.

I do not know, but for the core worlds the wormholes could already belong to the local system (although one local system could own both ends of the WH, like Manticore does with its). I imagine the SL government provided the astrogation control and split the proceeds with the owner (again just for the core worlds).

I find it very hard to believe that the SEM will try to control wormholes within the core worlds of the SL. The arrangement you are discussing is much more likely in the Verge.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by kzt   » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:03 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I do not believe that the actual value or cost of the infrastructure is equal to decades worth of system GDP.

I can only plead that I relied upon one David Weber for the cost.

Economics is the weakest part of the Honorverse and always has been.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by Fox2!   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:25 am

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stewart wrote:Not that we don't get into complex discussions here or anything, but now the question of what goods/services/specie/barter currency would be charged for wormhole/warp bridge passage. The Solaran Credit, previously the reliable currency, has taken a value hit. The NSL "might" not like paying in Grayson Austins or Mantie Dollars. There will be further "animated discussions" on the tendered currency or credits

-- Stewart


There's no requirement to accept foreign currency (or bank drafts) at par. They can always be discounted for perceived risks to the stability of the SL government or money.
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Re: Wormholes & the New Solaruan League
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:55 am

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Fox2! wrote:
stewart wrote:Not that we don't get into complex discussions here or anything, but now the question of what goods/services/specie/barter currency would be charged for wormhole/warp bridge passage. The Solaran Credit, previously the reliable currency, has taken a value hit. The NSL "might" not like paying in Grayson Austins or Mantie Dollars. There will be further "animated discussions" on the tendered currency or credits

-- Stewart


There's no requirement to accept foreign currency (or bank drafts) at par. They can always be discounted for perceived risks to the stability of the SL government or money.



I mentioned before that the Manty government might create a Wormhole credit voucher system to restart trade - set each voucher to be worth so many ship Kilotons worth of standard transit fee of one leg of the Manticorian Wormhole. Any debt could be paid for via such Vouchers and they could be traded to others. Allow them to be traded on free markets without set price. Nations with existing wormhole discounts (most favored nation) could deal with hard currency or use vouchers (if they have them) at a multiplier of their face value.

With a limited # of vouchers used to pay debts (say 1 year's 80% max junction transit), the vouchers will immediately be worth a fair amount and keep a value - and trading them on an open market might actually increase in value - especially if owning them ENSURES transit, regardless of the ownership of the vessel (except in times of war).

It would create a large amount of a fixed currency with a value everyone can agree on and is desirable.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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