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Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?

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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by stewart   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:06 pm

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cthia wrote:UNDERDOG

I once said that the SEM has to be careful not to fall prey to human nature. The human nature of being the underdog in a galaxy where everybody likes them and roots for them. With so many seeds of goodwill sown and harvested, they rise to the top of the mountain and plant their flag. As a result, they are no longer the underdog. Now there is a need to find a new underdog to root for, that thing called human nature. Underdog has now become a cat. Nobody likes the fat cat at the top.


------------------

Hence the argument to fragment the SL into multiple, smaller independent units -- Meyers Sector, Mayan Sector, Beowulf Sector and (ominous music) Renaissance Group..... (da da da dum)

-- Stewart
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:35 pm

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GloriousRuse wrote:@LDweschler

The manties may be sold as the good guys, supposedly acting in the best Burke sense. Now that they are invincible to the point where literally nothing done to or against them matters for more than melodrama, and everything they do is divinely perfect in all aspects, they have become the ur-Goliath regardless of in universe weight.

Some version of David and Goliath has been told in umpteen cultures for thousands of years. I don’t think I know of any where Goliath is the hero.

In my eyes you are describing the benefits of synergy. Or, in layman's terms, "What goes around comes around," or "The seeds of good will will harvest a windfall," or "You reap what you sow," or "A stitch in time saves nine."

The SEM is simply an example of reapers of what they sew.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:49 pm

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cthia wrote:
GloriousRuse wrote:
The manties may be sold as the good guys, supposedly acting in the best Burke sense. Now that they are invincible to the point where literally nothing done to or against them matters for more than melodrama, and everything they do is divinely perfect in all aspects, they have become the ur-Goliath regardless of in universe weight.

Some version of David and Goliath has been told in umpteen cultures for thousands of years. I don’t think I know of any where Goliath is the hero.

In my eyes you are describing the benefits of synergy. Or, in layman's terms, "What goes around comes around," or "The seeds of good will will harvest a windfall," or "You reap what you sow," or "A stitch in time saves nine."

The SEM is simply an example of reapers of what they sew.


David did not become Goliath just because he won. Note also that Manticore came close to losing a couple of times. And it was the Grand Alliance which included several star nations that won and did it without doing all that much damage comparatively...at least in terms of numbers killed.

Even near the end the Solarian League is larger, much larger than the GA. But it was run poorly.

And by the way, you reap what you SOW.

Sewing puts clothing together, sowing is laying down seeds. Reaping is gathering what has been planted.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by tlb   » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:17 pm

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cthia wrote:In my eyes you are describing the benefits of synergy. Or, in layman's terms, "What goes around comes around," or "The seeds of good will will harvest a windfall," or "You reap what you sow," or "A stitch in time saves nine."

The SEM is simply an example of reapers of what they sew.


ldwechsler wrote:Even near the end the Solarian League is larger, much larger than the GA. But it was run poorly.

And by the way, you reap what you SOW.

Sewing puts clothing together, sowing is laying down seeds. Reaping is gathering what has been planted.

To be fair, he did get it right the first time he wrote it and spelling is an occasional problem for everyone. I would object to defining synergy as "You reap what you sow"; synergy is the positive effect of combination and cooperation which results in "the whole being greater than the sum of its parts". I think it is true that Manticore and Grayson together had synergy; with even more synergy resulting from the addition of Haven.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:24 am

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:In my eyes you are describing the benefits of synergy. Or, in layman's terms, "What goes around comes around," or "The seeds of good will will harvest a windfall," or "You reap what you sow," or "A stitch in time saves nine."

The SEM is simply an example of reapers of what they sew.


ldwechsler wrote:Even near the end the Solarian League is larger, much larger than the GA. But it was run poorly.

And by the way, you reap what you SOW.

Sewing puts clothing together, sowing is laying down seeds. Reaping is gathering what has been planted.

To be fair, he did get it right the first time he wrote it and spelling is an occasional problem for everyone. I would object to defining synergy as "You reap what you sow"; synergy is the positive effect of combination and cooperation which results in "the whole being greater than the sum of its parts". I think it is true that Manticore and Grayson together had synergy; with even more synergy resulting from the addition of Haven.

Thanks ldwechsler. I had to look back a few posts to catch my mistake. But even you got it wrong too. It is "Reaped what they sowED." I mistakenly put sew as past tense of sow. As Shannon might say "Oops, I did it again."

Oh, and I wasn't defining synergy as "You reap what you sow," inasmuch as the SK reaped what they sowed with the goodwill they always planted which led to the alliance with Grayson, then with the alliance with Haven. More with Grayson, but the GA (Beth) could have told Haven to pound sand. It wouldn't have been smart of them - or full of that goodwill - but they could have.

In effect, I was lumping GloriusRuse's entire post as a combination - literally a heaping helping - of all of the above.

The synergy of the SK + Grayson becomes even more synergetic with SK + Grayson + Haven

Sometimes I simply assume what I'm putting down is obvious.

Someone asked why I share so much. I explained that I share only when I feel it necessary. Long ago I apologized to everyone's sensibilities. My grammar is far from being perfect. It may have been better if I had listened to my English teachers instead of sleeping with them. ::shrug::

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by GloriousRuse   » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:22 pm

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They didn’t become Goliath because they won. They became Goliath because the author blatantly violated his own world design so that the precious protagonists would never have a real setback. Again, it wasn’t always this blatant - at one point the Mantie government actually had different parliamentary factions that were not pure driven snow with perfect crystal balls! And the Navy actually had to wait a few years when caught off balance!

But from book 11 onwards? Nope. Just a magic “I win” button for everything. That’s what makes them Goliath. Not the act of winning, the act of winning by fiat decree that everything they do must be the most perfect there ever was and that God is Literally on Their Side, sticking his thumbs on the scale to save them from anything more than background narrative losses.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:20 pm

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GloriousRuse wrote:They didn’t become Goliath because they won. They became Goliath because the author blatantly violated his own world design so that the precious protagonists would never have a real setback. Again, it wasn’t always this blatant - at one point the Mantie government actually had different parliamentary factions that were not pure driven snow with perfect crystal balls! And the Navy actually had to wait a few years when caught off balance!

But from book 11 onwards? Nope. Just a magic “I win” button for everything. That’s what makes them Goliath. Not the act of winning, the act of winning by fiat decree that everything they do must be the most perfect there ever was and that God is Literally on Their Side, sticking his thumbs on the scale to save them from anything more than background narrative losses.


Didn't have a real setback? Beth is sitting on the throne because of a real setback. The Treecats are up in arms because of a real setback. The entire orbital industry was laid waste. Only one Nike survived Oyster Bay? They were tricked into going to war by a hidden entity. They suffered the helm of the government at the hands of a buffoon when victory was close enough to taste, who also cost them Erewhon and attritional advantages by drawing down the navy in the midst of the Peeps secretly building their own vast navy.

I truly don't understand it GloriousRuse. They sowed the right seeds. They didn't ignore their responsibilities and invested in their education system-wide. They adopted the right attitudes and the right military posture. They are not by nature expansive and they never put their foot up anybody's arse who didn't deserve it or have it coming. One of the reasons they didn't do any of these things is because they didn't have to, which goes back to my statement claiming it's easy to be righteous when you are rich. Morals, scruples and values take you a long way in life, as most of our parents instill within us. It is the same for a polity. The Star Kingdom built up a reputation in the galaxy that is irrefutable. It is what is meant by "The honor of the Queen."

Incidentally, you could also make the same assertions about Honor. Who also benefit from the same model of the proper seeds sown in morals, scruples values and goodwill which stood her in good stead throughout the galaxy. Her MO - same as the Queen who she found worthy of her service - preceded her. It preceded her to Cerberrus, into Andermani space and onto the Havenite ships within the officer corp.

If morals, scruples, values and goodwill were military bases the SEM and Honor have a port in every system in the galaxy. How can one downplay that kind of momentum and potential energy? There are so many intangibles.

At any rate, the author didn't stack the deck, the Star Kingdom stacked their own. Starting with the Queen's father who instilled in his officer corp the same morals, scruples and values in which he ruled. A value system where your officer corp will give you blood out of each of his own turnips.


I really need to complete my take on . . .

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:30 pm

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GloriousRuse wrote:They didn’t become Goliath because they won. They became Goliath because the author blatantly violated his own world design so that the precious protagonists would never have a real setback. Again, it wasn’t always this blatant - at one point the Mantie government actually had different parliamentary factions that were not pure driven snow with perfect crystal balls! And the Navy actually had to wait a few years when caught off balance!

But from book 11 onwards? Nope. Just a magic “I win” button for everything. That’s what makes them Goliath. Not the act of winning, the act of winning by fiat decree that everything they do must be the most perfect there ever was and that God is Literally on Their Side, sticking his thumbs on the scale to save them from anything more than background narrative losses.

Are you only counting main Harrington line books (so perhaps you are saying after Storm from the Shadows)? Any case you are starting after the bad things that Cthia has listed?
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:39 am

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tlb wrote:
GloriousRuse wrote:They didn’t become Goliath because they won. They became Goliath because the author blatantly violated his own world design so that the precious protagonists would never have a real setback. Again, it wasn’t always this blatant - at one point the Mantie government actually had different parliamentary factions that were not pure driven snow with perfect crystal balls! And the Navy actually had to wait a few years when caught off balance!

But from book 11 onwards? Nope. Just a magic “I win” button for everything. That’s what makes them Goliath. Not the act of winning, the act of winning by fiat decree that everything they do must be the most perfect there ever was and that God is Literally on Their Side, sticking his thumbs on the scale to save them from anything more than background narrative losses.

Are you only counting main Harrington line books (so perhaps you are saying after Storm from the Shadows)? Any case you are starting after the bad things that Cthia has listed?

Yet, the Star Kingdom wasn't made in a few books beginning after book 11. To understand the inexorable momentum gained would require studying the seeds of goodwill she planted and the goodwill she accumulated in return, which would require the beginning of the series with King Roger. The Star Kingdom is a complicated gal. Perhaps books 1 - 10 was like building the foundation on a construction site. It takes forever to come up out of the ground, but once the foundation is complete, the rest is a cruise.

Consider that Grayson may not have chosen to align itself with the Star Kingdom hadn't the Star Kingdom's reputation preceded her.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by tlb   » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:19 am

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GloriousRuse wrote:They didn’t become Goliath because they won. They became Goliath because the author blatantly violated his own world design so that the precious protagonists would never have a real setback. Again, it wasn’t always this blatant - at one point the Mantie government actually had different parliamentary factions that were not pure driven snow with perfect crystal balls! And the Navy actually had to wait a few years when caught off balance!

But from book 11 onwards? Nope. Just a magic “I win” button for everything. That’s what makes them Goliath. Not the act of winning, the act of winning by fiat decree that everything they do must be the most perfect there ever was and that God is Literally on Their Side, sticking his thumbs on the scale to save them from anything more than background narrative losses.

tlb wrote:Are you only counting main Harrington line books (so perhaps you are saying after Storm from the Shadows)? Any case you are starting after the bad things that Cthia has listed?

cthia wrote:Yet, the Star Kingdom wasn't made in a few books beginning after book 11. To understand the inexorable momentum gained would require studying the seeds of goodwill she planted and the goodwill she accumulated in return, which would require the beginning of the series with King Roger. The Star Kingdom is a complicated gal. Perhaps books 1 - 10 was like building the foundation on a construction site. It takes forever to come up out of the ground, but once the foundation is complete, the rest is a cruise.

Consider that Grayson may not have chosen to align itself with the Star Kingdom hadn't the Star Kingdom's reputation preceded her.

I think we all agree that the Star Kingdom faced a lot of adversity and accomplished a lot of good works in the early books; but I believe the argument being made is that after the entente with Haven everything was too easy (except for what happened to friendly Beowulf).

Perhaps the problem for the Malign was that they never considered the possibility of such an alliance between two countries that they had steered into a long war. Whatever the reason, the League and the SLN were weak punching bags for the forces of the GA. The planning by Malign never adjusted to the fact that the SLN needed to be much stronger to carry out their nefarious scheme of losing in a way that fatally weakened the other side.

As for Grayson, they faced three options: align with Manticore, be conquered by Haven or have Haven align with Masada which would then conquer Grayson. Joining with Manticore was the only palatable option that they had, so the SKM's reputation only needed to be good compared to that of Haven.
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