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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by tlb   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:54 am

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cthia wrote:Over the course of my tenure on the forum, it has been interesting to submit notions that find themselves in opposition against most people. My controversial notions come at you blind and they are deeply embedded under the skin of storyline. They also require making other mental connections before you can understand them. It is interesting to note when these other mental connections are made in time. Oftentimes I mention when these connections are finally made and link them to long lost discussions. In this particular discussion it has already happened twice. It is also quite interesting when people fail to even realize that their own notions support mine, without even realizing it, hence my claim that "Oftentimes they eventually come around."

Daryl's notion leads to the same fork in the road. But so too does tlb's notion lead to the same fork in the road. Yet tlb doesn't seem to understand that his own notion supports that in which he argues against . . .
tlb wrote:I very much doubt that the rules of the dueling code would be changed much: perhaps some limits on the choice of weapon,

The Protector's Champion cannot be allowed to choose a weapon that detects the crease. Nor can she smuggle that weapon into the duel. Nor can she bring that weapon to the duel without full disclosure on a faith based planet like Grayson - where squirming worms tend to have a diet of steroids.

So, tlb, if you meditate on your own notion, you'll come around. Unless you'd like to argue against yourself. You seem to agree that some safeguards may eventually have to be adopted. You simply can't see that the time for your notion came along with Honor. ::shrug::

Also, admitting to a plan that inadvertently killed children is NOT the same as premeditatedly planning to kill children.

AND . . . please understand that within every true Christian . . .

Trial by Faith supersedes Trial by Combat.

Burdette ordered two plans that would kill people. It is true that the only person that he specifically wanted dead was Honor (in the second instance), but there was certain knowledge that people would die in both; so it does not really matter for his guilt that he did not intend that the first instance included the deaths of children nor the second the death of Reverend Hanks. He still bears responsibility for those deaths and all those deaths are not just a "transgression against man's laws", but also a transgression against God's Laws.

Trial by Faith is something between a person and their God, so is mostly private. Trial by Combat is two people facing the Judgment of God in front of the whole community. The first is more important for the individual and the second is for the public.

As I expect you know, the line you quoted was about Manticore's laws on dueling and what I said about Grayson's Trial by Combat was that I expect it will be removed from their constitution. So all the fluff about my notions supporting yours, so I must come around, is wishful thinking. Which makes me wonder why you have so much faith in your powers of persuasion; I have not seen anyone in this forum change sides to take your part.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:43 am

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Burdette failed his Trial by Faith when he convinced himself that God wanted him to fraudulently create circumstances to suggest Skydome's activities are harmful to Grayson. That fraudulent suggestion then could be used to tar Honor's and Manticore's activities has harmful to Grayson. How does lying about circumstances promote the truth of what God desires from His children? Despite everything God's Word as revealed by the Holy Books Burdette revered said, Burdette chose the course of the Deciever and turned away from God.

He lost the Trial by Combat he chose of his free will when he trusted his proven faulty understanding of circumstances. Already lured by his passions into erroneous belief about God's will, he trusts his faulty reasoning into thinking a fight to the death was just like any other contest he's participated in. He was wrong, again.

Burdette lost his secular trial when he admitted his guilt and chose to forego his court trial in favor the Trial by Combat. Doing both those things allowed Honor to act as executioner with a clear conscience. His admitted guilt made his life forfeit, if Honor could take it with the Sword of State. She did and exacted secular justice as prescribed by Grayson law upon Burdette's guilty, self-centered, murdering, hateful, bigoted self.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:56 am

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PeterZ wrote:As for Burdette, even if she had sensed his crease she would not have cheated by Grayson standards. God acts through His children and Honor's sensitivity was something anyone in that room would recognize as a gift from Him. No one in Manticore or Beowulf would have considered using a natural talent cheating. Not even if that natural talent was unique. Burdette made the challenge and got what he deserved for choosing a course of action leading to death.
Plus cthia is assuming it was her empathic abilities that detected the crease, but neither we nor Honor know whether that's that case.
Flag in Exile wrote:She never knew, then or later, what William Fitzclarence's "crease" was. She simply knew she'd recognized it. That something deep inside her saw the moment he committed himself, the instant his arms tightened to bring his blade slashing down.
The instant in which he was entirely focused on the attack, and not on defense.


It's just as likely that someone who'd been studying various martial arts for at least as long as Burdette had studied the sword, simply recognized from that extensive experience when he'd switched from waiting to committing fully to an attack. And the only description was a physical one "his arms tightened".

Actually thinking about it, someone who is properly in the "zone" for martial arts or sword fighting is unlikely to have significant emotional signals at the start of combat - that part of the brain is too slow to keep up with the finely honed reflexes someone skilled in that style of fighting needs to be even slightly competitive. Would there even be some noticeable emotional change there for a treecat or Honor to feel when someone switched from defense to offense?
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:55 pm

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PeterZ wrote:As for Burdette, even if she had sensed his crease she would not have cheated by Grayson standards. God acts through His children and Honor's sensitivity was something anyone in that room would recognize as a gift from Him. No one in Manticore or Beowulf would have considered using a natural talent cheating. Not even if that natural talent was unique. Burdette made the challenge and got what he deserved for choosing a course of action leading to death.
Jonathan_S wrote:Plus cthia is assuming it was her empathic abilities that detected the crease, but neither we nor Honor know whether that's that case.
Flag in Exile wrote:She never knew, then or later, what William Fitzclarence's "crease" was. She simply knew she'd recognized it. That something deep inside her saw the moment he committed himself, the instant his arms tightened to bring his blade slashing down.
The instant in which he was entirely focused on the attack, and not on defense.
Jonathan_S wrote:It's just as likely that someone who'd been studying various martial arts for at least as long as Burdette had studied the sword, simply recognized from that extensive experience when he'd switched from waiting to committing fully to an attack. And the only description was a physical one "his arms tightened".

Actually thinking about it, someone who is properly in the "zone" for martial arts or sword fighting is unlikely to have significant emotional signals at the start of combat - that part of the brain is too slow to keep up with the finely honed reflexes someone skilled in that style of fighting needs to be even slightly competitive. Would there even be some noticeable emotional change there for a treecat or Honor to feel when someone switched from defense to offense?

This also assumes that humanity in the Honorverse does not already have a low level telempathic ability. That some individuals not subjected to the Star Line mods would have had this ability in sufficient strength to recognize a "'crease". Darkness Foe, the doctor adopted by Fisher during Stephanie Harrington's time, certainly had such a capacity. For all we know with enough focus on developing such a gift, Burdette could have developed this himself.

That possibility means Burdette could have developed that skill just as Honor could have developed her swordsmanship to a greater degree. Again, not cheating but an advantage as a result of choices each participant has made. Heck, I certainly think that recognizing a "crease" consistently has some component of telempathy. Being certain that an observable tell is truly the "crease" or the decision point an opponent chooses to attack must entail emotional recognition in some form. If humans have some base level of telempathy, this is certainly contributes to recognizing things like the "crease".
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Exidor   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:23 am

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Perhaps I'll get on the board more than once a week or so... but alas, spare time is not copious. :)

cthia wrote:The main difference is Honor's specific abilities which makes the duel against Burdette not only unfair, but deceitful. But most importantly, unrighteous.


I'm going to disagree.

I disagree about "unfair". Though Honor has the "trained reaction speed of someone born and bred at the bottom of a gravity well fifteen percent more powerful" than that of Grayson, her training with Master Thomas showed that she could be beaten in a sword fight.

Though Honor had 4 decades of martial arts training, Fitzclarence had more experience with the sword. Had he taken her seriously - instead of belittling her in his mind as being a stupid female (with all the baggage of being a female he assigned her in his mind) befuddled by all the "metaphysical claptrap" learning the sword - he'd have stood a far better chance of keeping his head on his shoulders.

I disagree about "deceitful". Honor had not tried to hide or disguise her physical capabilities (not that she really could, considering in 1903 P.D. she'd shown her capability as a fighter - (The Honor of the Queen), that fight was shown non-stop for hours on the planetary newsnet, making her reflexes and strength obvious, with the ease in which she lifted men and broke bones in the fight.

I disagree about "unrighteous". As Protector, Mayhew is the ruler of Grayson. As the Protector's Champion (by law, since she holds the Star of Grayson), Honor holds the power of High, Middle, and Low Justice. Righteousness generally defined as "morally right or justifiable." The powers of High Justice include the right to pass the death penalty - and she was specifically told by the Protector, "I do not wish him to leave this Chamber alive."

To me (and others are more than welcome to disagree), this was not a duel at all - but rather the enforcement of law. Fitzclarence challenged the Protector's decree - and legally Honor had to fight, in defence of that decree. And since as Champion she was required to fight, her actions were "righteous".

cthia wrote:Do any of you understand that Honor is the only human with her ability? Does anyone realize how paranoid humanity would be if someone was to be accused of being able to read minds?

Reading Burdette's mind is exactly what Honor could do as far as detecting the crease. There is a mountain of difference that you can't sweep under the secular rug. Can Honor prove that she didn't use mind reading to defeat Burdette?


Considering that Honor doesn't read minds, but rather detects emotional states (or, as a treecat might put it, "tastes mindglows")... I think your argument fell apart.

You may have a point that Honor can't prove she didn't use an empathic ability to detect Fitzclarence's "crease" - but neither can anyone prove that she did. But, really - she doesn't have to prove or disprove it. She was there to be the Protector's Champion - to enforce the law as set forth by the ruler of Grason - with all her ability. To do less than her best... that would have been "unrighteous".

As always, the opinion(s) of others may vary. :)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Exidor   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:40 am

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cthia wrote:The faith of a mustard seed can move mountains


But faith is not the equivalent of "righteousness." While faith may indeed move mountains, where was the righteousness of cursing the fig for not having fruit out of season?

The Gospel according to Mark, Chapter 11:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.


Having faith in God does not necessarily make any given individual or group right - as evidenced by all the evil done by man in God's name.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Exidor   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:45 am

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ldwechsler wrote:Burdette's error was to assume that what he wanted was the actual will of God.

A lot of fools do this.


>heh< Amen, brother. :)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Exidor   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:12 am

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cthia wrote:Burdette certainly did expect it to be a fair fight.


Not as I read the book - as written, he seemed to expect it to be unfair in his favor.

cthia wrote:How does any of that give Honor the authority to unscrupulously misuse her God given abilities betraying any God of any faith?


You call it a "God given" ability, and then you denounce her using it at all - if it's a God-given gift, then (to me, at least) to not use it would be betraying the very God that gave it to her to use.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Exidor   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:30 am

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cthia wrote:This can-o-worms isn't about me.


From this side of my monitor, of course it is - this is all about how you view righteousness through your worldview, and your view of how "the eyes of the God" work - and how you think the story should have gone. :)

As evidenced by "She should have come clean because it is the right thing to do in the eyes of God, and all that is pure and clean, under God's laws." and "Excerpt from the conversation I expect Honor to receive from her God later in heaven."

All-in-all, though - I'm about five-eighths convinced that all your arguments - be it regarding Honor's actions on Grayson, or how the Solarians viewed Beowolf as treasonous - are actually a way of getting around the fanfic restrictions Mr. Weber places on his work. :)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:49 am

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Exidor wrote:All-in-all, though - I'm about five-eighths convinced that all your arguments - be it regarding Honor's actions on Grayson, or how the Solarians viewed Beowolf as treasonous - are actually a way of getting around the fanfic restrictions Mr. Weber places on his work. :)

You should realize that there is no evidence that he's ever actually read any of the books. As far as I can determine, his hornorvere arguments are solely this based on some article in some wiki somewhere.
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