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Manticore's new citizens

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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:39 pm

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NortonIDaughter wrote:So Manticore needs a new constitution, or at least a heck of a set of amendments. Forget the Talbott cluster; the newest citizens to need some new rights expressly codified are the treecats and their people. (And one other group I'll get to.)

Right now the 'cats have one extra-MBS colony, on Grayson. It's likely they'll want to establish others, and it's certain that the higher ups on Haven, Beowulf, etc will want to extend that invitation-- the 'cats are too great an advantage to the humans they choose to partner with. But as we've seen in Treecat Wars, even 'cats have conflicts between them. How does Manticore deal with the fact that there will eventually come a time, if only in the distant future, when war will cut some 'cat clans off from the homeworld-- or worse, pit treecats against Manticore itself? They need a "right of return" for treecats and their adoptees. Automatic dual citizenship or only just the offer, permanently extended.

So far, treecats have been lucky in their allies, and cunning in their successful takeover of the monarchy. :lol: But now that they're out of the closet, they need the right to an education, and to send representatives to Parliament if they so choose. Most 'cats may always want to live as they have, but now that they're starting to integrate more closely into human society, they need to be able to access the information they need, and to argue their case as necessary. (How would treecats vote on going to war, for example? Not to mention, what one constitutional amendment can do, another can undo...)

And while the SEM's in the process of adjusting to the fact that they have a whole sentient species demanding a new role in their society, perhaps they ought to extend the same opportunities to the OTHER sentient species they've colonized.

Medusans. All we really see of them is in OBS, where they're described as having all the hallmarks of any civilization, including governments, laws, and trade. Where Manticore could have argued that, without a common language, the "perpetual child" thing was the best they could do for treecats, Medusans *have* language and have had the ability to communicate with humans for decades.

Where is their representation in Parliament? How do they contest Manticore's decisions about their planet, which has already been involved in Manticore's wars at least twice? We know Manticore limits their access to technology regardless of their wishes (using the rather spurious argument that they don't want to contaminate the culture-- if all you wanted was the wormhole, why did you land at all? Just build the forts, call the planet a preserve and don't let anyone land!).

Do they have the right to go off-world? Do they have the right to books, histories, galactic news? I would assume not, if Manticore is trying to keep them from acquiring tech (and educational materials would lead to exactly that). Which is ridiculous. At this point, Medusans know the galaxy is out there. It's time to give it to them.



Treecats have legal right s because they are cute and cuddly.
Medusans have no rights because not only are they shit ugly, they eat their own shit. No one wants to associate with them. Hell, just nuke em from orbit.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by Fox2!   » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:49 pm

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saber964 wrote:
Based on the treecat stated population, treecats would have 3 or 4 members of parliament and probably the same number in the house of lords. Based on the exploits of several treecats and assumed positions.

Lady Samantha Countess of Sun Leaf
Lord Nimitz Duke of Bright Water
Lady Sorrow Singer Grand Duchess of Black Rock, Singer of the Clans.


Wouldn't they take their seats under their tree cat names, rather than their two-leg one?
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:06 am

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Well, regarding the code duello, no truly egalitarian society has one at all, since it's essentially "might makes right" on a personal scale. Denver Summervale may have been paid for most of his kills, but any a**hole with good aim could wreck as much devastation as he did with no legal repercussions.

But I definitely see where, say, having Medusans ask to join the RMN would cause all sorts of headaches. Do you really want to have to redesign all your ships to accommodate their physique when only a handful are joining up at first? (Picture them as Marines or in the Army though. Now *that's* something the rest of the galaxy should fear.) On the flip side, RFC has made a point of mentioning how beneficial alternative viewpoints can be over and over in the series-- Hemphill & White Haven, Grayson & Manticore-- and he's especially played it up with the treecats. I see no reason why Medusans wouldn't be just as valuable in broadening the SEM's horizons.

While the treecats' status as sentients can't be argued, the amount of land on Sphinx they hold could well be, especially in the farther future when they're more firmly integrated into human society-- after all, part of the reason they hold so much of it is that they *weren't* integrating, and needed at least that much land to maintain their population and way of life. Especially if, say, young scouts and other select treecats began to claim the right to an education as citizens (to better understand human society and tech, etc), I can see some greedy people arguing that they are being treated with excessive favor by being able to claim both human and treecat benefits.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:02 am

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NortonIDaughter wrote:Well, regarding the code duello, no truly egalitarian society has one at all, since it's essentially "might makes right" on a personal scale. Denver Summervale may have been paid for most of his kills, but any a**hole with good aim could wreck as much devastation as he did with no legal repercussions.

But I definitely see where, say, having Medusans ask to join the RMN would cause all sorts of headaches. Do you really want to have to redesign all your ships to accommodate their physique when only a handful are joining up at first? (Picture them as Marines or in the Army though. Now *that's* something the rest of the galaxy should fear.) On the flip side, RFC has made a point of mentioning how beneficial alternative viewpoints can be over and over in the series-- Hemphill & White Haven, Grayson & Manticore-- and he's especially played it up with the treecats. I see no reason why Medusans wouldn't be just as valuable in broadening the SEM's horizons.

While the treecats' status as sentients can't be argued, the amount of land on Sphinx they hold could well be, especially in the farther future when they're more firmly integrated into human society-- after all, part of the reason they hold so much of it is that they *weren't* integrating, and needed at least that much land to maintain their population and way of life. Especially if, say, young scouts and other select treecats began to claim the right to an education as citizens (to better understand human society and tech, etc), I can see some greedy people arguing that they are being treated with excessive favor by being able to claim both human and treecat benefits.

Medusans simply won't be suited for naval service. Lots of people aren't suited for naval service now. They call them Marines. LOL

Good point. But then it could be defended in favor of progress. Instead of dual citizenship, a sort of dual species-ship. The problems of dual citizenship still aren't completely ironed out. Certainly for Americans who eventually end up forgoing dual citizenship in some cases because it is less legally constraining - hence more profitable. Oh the IRS horror stories of owning businesses in two countries where you are a legal citizen. Will the Cats be up against the same rollercoaster ride?

In a sense, legal precedence has already been established.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:22 pm

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I am not inviting the Medusans to dinner.

Nutrition:
Medusans produced a strong 'stomach acid' which they expelled over their food, then massaged it with their hands before squatting over it to eat it. This made cooking their food mostly unneccessary. They can go for longer periods without feeding than a human can, though they grow gradually more torpid as time passes.

In Medusan culture, the touching and handing of partially digested food to other members of the social circle was a gesture of goodwill. (Companion)

Medusans easily became addicted to Mekoha, a drug extracted from local vegatation. (HH1)
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:19 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I am not inviting the Medusans to dinner.

Nutrition:
Medusans produced a strong 'stomach acid' which they expelled over their food, then massaged it with their hands before squatting over it to eat it. This made cooking their food mostly unneccessary. They can go for longer periods without feeding than a human can, though they grow gradually more torpid as time passes.

In Medusan culture, the touching and handing of partially digested food to other members of the social circle was a gesture of goodwill. (Companion)

Medusans easily became addicted to Mekoha, a drug extracted from local vegatation. (HH1)

Their nutrition and habits seem a plus for the military. They'll eat anything, as the military are trained to do? They're more survivable in the elements. Besides, if they are sentient enough, nutrition cannot be used as a filter. Or the rock eating Hortas on StarTrek wouldn't have stood a chance.

I bet they think we smell.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:25 am

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Dame Estelle mentions that they're pretty much invisible in the bush, and even high, untrained, and way under-armed, they did a lot of damage in OBS. With training and modern tech they'd be absolutely terrifying.

(As for drug addiction, I really don't feel our species has a leg to stand on there!)

And like treecats, I suspect they have a lot to offer culturally to Manticore.


Speaking of treecats, their spectacular telempathic and telepathic abilities tend to overshadow another ability that could be just as useful in different ways-- their incredible recall! The way their memories and memory songs are described, it's clear that they remember in far more comprehensive detail than humans do. If I try to picture the car that I saw in Car and Driver with my daughter today, I get a vague green sports car shape with the Aston Martin symbol on the back. It's shown that 'cats can basically pull up the whole scene as if they were still there to give to another 'cat if necessary. That's AMAZING.

Not to mention how capacious their brains' storage must be, to be able to hold all their own memories as well as all the transferred songs they've received.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by kzt   » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:26 am

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Against any modern force that “invisibility” is about as effective as painting your star ships black.
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:43 pm

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kzt wrote:Against any modern force that “invisibility” is about as effective as painting your star ships black.

Especially once you start loading them up with modern weapons, armor, and equipment, which modern sensors are designed to seek out. A Stilty in power armor isn't going to be any more stealthy that a human Marine in power armor would be. (And likely less so due to their larger size).
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Re: Manticore's new citizens
Post by Erls   » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:01 pm

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In regards to the Treecat land ownership and issues: I don't think that would be much of an issue. If the 'Cats were given full citizenship, the most expedient outcome would be for each clan to be granted legal title to their range. Unclaimed territories could be either be held in trust for a future clan or divided among the surrounding clans via their agreement. Then, the clan could decide whether it wanted to grant individual ownership or particular locations (e.g., trees) to individual families or if it wanted the newly formed clan government (e.g., county board) to own the entirety of the range.

I would guess most clans would stay with communal ownership of the range due to history and custom. Thus, each clan would as a unique government entity (basically, a township or county) to sell mineral, water, or other rights to third parties with the income going to the clan. Who knows what some clans would think of as ways to earn income (and pay for advanced education for some of their members). Perhaps some clans would build "hotels" that would allow humans to spend a few nights living with the clan and experiencing a 'traditional' 'Cat lifestyle. Some may allow for limited mineral extraction or other such uses if done following specific guidelines.

Basically, there are legal ways we know of today that could be applied to 'Cats as they transition to full citizens.

The more interesting question, to me, is how 'Cats who choose to live among humans would get along. The 'Cats of course would know sign language, thanks to the memory singers, but how would they interact in daily life? Would cities have to build 'Cat specific housing (perhaps greenhouses with trees in them and kept stocked with prey)? How would the legal system ensure that 'Cats are not illegally messing with the minds, memories, or emotions of the humans around them without permission? How would the education system adapt to teaching a species without a written language but near perfect memories?
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