Spider drive ships and technical limitations

Potato wrote:Why do you think they do not have alpha nodes?

Galactic Sapper wrote:While it's not specifically stated they do not have alpha nodes, it is specifically stated that they lack inertial compensators. They rely on the internal gravity plates to counteract acceleration and could not survive using gravity waves even if they could generate sails.

kzt wrote:No, it has been stated they don’t use a compensator while under spider drive. This is quite different from not having one.

Jonathan_S wrote:A few little things.
First just a clarifying reminder that most of hyperspace is rifts between grav waves. Spider ships can unquestionably travel in those areas using their spider drive. Sails are only needed in wormholes and grav waves. IF a Lenny Det can generate sails that opens up more routes, but even if they can’t they can still (carefully) use most of hyperspace.

Second IIRC RFC did once post basically “what makes you think a Lennard Detwiller-class can’t use a wormhole?” That hints that likely they can produce sails using some kind of Alpha node.

However that doesn’t necessarily imply they carry a compensator. AFAIK there’s no need for a compensator to go through a wormhole. And remember how sharply acceleration a compensator can handle falls off once you exceed 8.5 megatons. A Lenny Det might be massive enough that, even with the roughly 10x acceleration advantage a grav wave gives over a wedge, a compensator can’t give better acceleration that she can manage on her grav plates - so why waste the space. (That’s why AFAIK there’s no reason to put a compensator on a fort even though it can move slowly under a wedge. A standard grav plate gives better results at that mass).

I thought it was a good idea to correct the attribution about the inertial compensator from Stewart to Galactic Sapper and to remind everyone of what Jonathan S posted earlier. The inertial compensator needs the gravity sump provided by the nodes to work; something that wedges or sails can provide, but not the spider drive.
Also we do not have technical specs on the Lenny Det (so far as I know), only on the spider drive Sharks and graser torpedoes that needed to be transported through hyper-space.

tlb wrote:I thought it was a good idea to correct the attribution about the inertial compensator from Stewart to Galactic Sapper and to remind everyone of what Jonathan S posted earlier. The inertial compensator needs the gravity sump provided by the nodes to work; something that wedges or sails can provide, but not the spider drive.
Also we do not have technical specs on the Lenny Det (so far as I know), only on the spider drive Sharks and graser torpedoes that needed to be transported through hyper-space.

Correction: the inertial compensator dumps to the gravity wave itself rather than the sails, and the wedge as a poor imitation of the wave. If spider drive ships do have alpha nodes they would need a compensator to be able to use grav waves in hyper (or at least use waves to accelerate beyond what their internal grav plates could compensate for).

Also, the Sharks were presumably hyper capable. They were transported in to hide their arrival, but they also had to be able to leave the system on their own. Graser torpedoes are not hyper capable but then neither is anything else that small.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

tlb wrote:I thought it was a good idea to correct the attribution about the inertial compensator from Stewart to Galactic Sapper and to remind everyone of what Jonathan S posted earlier. The inertial compensator needs the gravity sump provided by the nodes to work; something that wedges or sails can provide, but not the spider drive.
Also we do not have technical specs on the Lenny Det (so far as I know), only on the spider drive Sharks and graser torpedoes that needed to be transported through hyper-space.

Correction: the inertial compensator dumps to the gravity wave itself rather than the sails, and the wedge as a poor imitation of the wave. If spider drive ships do have alpha nodes they would need a compensator to be able to use grav waves in hyper (or at least use waves to accelerate beyond what their internal grav plates could compensate for).

Also, the Sharks were presumably hyper capable. They were transported in to hide their arrival, but they also had to be able to leave the system on their own. Graser torpedoes are not hyper capable but then neither is anything else that small.

UNLESS

The Malign has developed an entirely new technology with allows the spider to function as Alpha node sails when necessary (Wormholes) and either dump energy like a sump in a grav wave, or ignores the effects of a grav wave altogether, making the sump pointless.

Galactic Sapper wrote:Also, the Sharks were presumably hyper capable. They were transported in to hide their arrival, but they also had to be able to leave the system on their own. Graser torpedoes are not hyper capable but then neither is anything else that small.

Why wouldn't they just be picked up at some rendezvous spot, similar to the way they were dropped off? We know from the text that they do not have an inertial compensator, you stated that yourself. Do you have any text evidence that the Sharks or the Ghost class scout ships are hyper capable?

tlb wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:Also, the Sharks were presumably hyper capable. They were transported in to hide their arrival, but they also had to be able to leave the system on their own. Graser torpedoes are not hyper capable but then neither is anything else that small.

Why wouldn't they just be picked up at some rendezvous spot, similar to the way they were dropped off? We know from the text that they do not have an inertial compensator, you stated that yourself. Do you have any text evidence that the Sharks or the Ghost class scout ships are hyper capable?

David said separately that they were hyper capable, even the Ghosts. The Ghosts were only inserted the way they were for the stealthy mission profile. Remember, the cold packs they used to exit the freighter were strap-ons - not the normal operating system of the ships.

Besides, the Sharks are in the 4-5 MTon range... and they hypered into Manticore and Grayson for the OB assault.

tlb wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:Also, the Sharks were presumably hyper capable. They were transported in to hide their arrival, but they also had to be able to leave the system on their own. Graser torpedoes are not hyper capable but then neither is anything else that small.

Why wouldn't they just be picked up at some rendezvous spot, similar to the way they were dropped off? We know from the text that they do not have an inertial compensator, you stated that yourself. Do you have any text evidence that the Sharks or the Ghost class scout ships are hyper capable?

From the text we do not know one way or the other whether spider drive ships have compensators. That was a supposition from lack of mention in the text. From later comments from RFC they probably have alpha nodes and compensators for hyper travel. We do know for certain that the Sharks are hyper capable, since they hypered in linked together to make one single footprint rather than many.

I had confused the Sharks for the Ghosts when I said they were transported in. The Ghosts were transported in to prevent a hyper footprint at all, but as theemile posted that required special equipment to do. Since they jettisoned it that equipment would not be available to reboard a freighter for a return trip. Nor would they want an anomalous freighter just hanging around out of easy sensor range of everyone else while the Ghosts reboarded right after the system had been wrecked by a sneak attack. That would send up lots of alarms to people with very good reason to be twitchy and could lead to the Ghosts being discovered or tracked.

Galactic Sapper wrote:From the text we do not know one way or the other whether spider drive ships have compensators. That was a supposition from lack of mention in the text. From later comments from RFC they probably have alpha nodes and compensators for hyper travel. We do know for certain that the Sharks are hyper capable, since they hypered in linked together to make one single footprint rather than many.

I had confused the Sharks for the Ghosts when I said they were transported in. The Ghosts were transported in to prevent a hyper footprint at all, but as theemile posted that required special equipment to do. Since they jettisoned it that equipment would not be available to reboard a freighter for a return trip. Nor would they want an anomalous freighter just hanging around out of easy sensor range of everyone else while the Ghosts reboarded right after the system had been wrecked by a sneak attack. That would send up lots of alarms to people with very good reason to be twitchy and could lead to the Ghosts being discovered or tracked.

Actually we do know that the spiders do not have compensators for use with the spider - they are limited to what their advanced grav plates can absorb. Whether they have a completely separate, 2nd drive system is unknown, but somehow they can hyper and use wormholes.

Galactic Sapper wrote:From the text we do not know one way or the other whether spider drive ships have compensators. That was a supposition from lack of mention in the text. From later comments from RFC they probably have alpha nodes and compensators for hyper travel. We do know for certain that the Sharks are hyper capable, since they hypered in linked together to make one single footprint rather than many.

I had confused the Sharks for the Ghosts when I said they were transported in. The Ghosts were transported in to prevent a hyper footprint at all, but as theemile posted that required special equipment to do. Since they jettisoned it that equipment would not be available to reboard a freighter for a return trip. Nor would they want an anomalous freighter just hanging around out of easy sensor range of everyone else while the Ghosts reboarded right after the system had been wrecked by a sneak attack. That would send up lots of alarms to people with very good reason to be twitchy and could lead to the Ghosts being discovered or tracked.

Theemile wrote:Actually we do know that the spiders do not have compensators for use with the spider - they are limited to what their advanced grav plates can absorb. Whether they have a completely separate, 2nd drive system is unknown, but somehow they can hyper and use wormholes.

After rereading the relevant text, I find that I have been making the same mistake: the Ghosts were transported and the Sharks flew independently.
I do not understand why they were tractored into two groups to make the transition into ordinary space. Wouldn't the spike detected by the array be even fainter if they did separate transitions at an irregular interval?

One other question about the text from chapter 51 of Storm from the Shadows:

Absolutely nothing seemed to happen for the next two or three minutes, but appearances were deceiving, and Topolev waited patiently, watching his own displays, as Task Force One of the Mesan Alignment Navy translated ever so slowly and gradually back into normal-space.
This maneuver had been tested against the Mesa System's sensor arrays by crews using the early Ghost-class ships even before the first of the Shark-class prototypes had ever been laid down, and Task Force One had practiced it over a hundred times once the mission had been okayed.

If we just agreed that the Ghosts were transported then how did they practice that maneuver, unless they are also hyper-capable? Then why transport them, since that does NOT prevent a hyper footprint?

1) The Ghosts were transported by freighter so they could be stealthily inserted inside the hyper limit and survey the inner system and built the targeting array. They had hyper capability, but using a "legitimate freighter" on a normal course allowed the close-in insertion. This was all done separate from the Sharks.

2) The Ghosts were just stand ins for the later Sharks, which were stand ins for the unbuilt Lenny Dets. The idea was to see if stealthy spider ships could believe-ably replicate the natural anomaly AND scoot out of the way before response forces could find them.

The large Sharks, which dropped the weapons pods and Graser torps, translated light months out, and used a maneuver which mimicked a naturally occuring ghost signal (a faint double burp) which would be detected by Manticore's massive long distance Grav detection arrays. So after a small, perfunctory investigation, the signal anomaly would be written off by RMN response forces. The Sharks then accelerated in for several months and released their weapons pods at their respective targets.

Manticore's arrays would have detected the Sharks at several times the distance they jumped at, this was a way to get them as close as possible.

Both types are hyper capable. Hyper out does not leave a footprint, and both forces left that way per David.

tlb wrote:After rereading the relevant text, I find that I have been making the same mistake: the Ghosts were transported and the Sharks flew independently.
I do not understand why they were tractored into two groups to make the transition into ordinary space. Wouldn't the spike detected by the array be even fainter if they did separate transitions at an irregular interval?

Edit: forum ate my text

First, the arrays are sensitive to the point where any transition is going to be picked up as a ghost signal. More or less powerful only matters to a point, and one Shark vs many linked together transitioning at essentially zero velocity doesn't matter as to whether the array will pick them up.

Second, since a single signal drew a days-long response from four destroyers, we can conclude that such signals are fairly uncommon. If they were more common half the fleet would be checking out anomalous instead of fighting the war.

Third, even scattered over many days, numerous ghost signals happening in that close proximity of time and space would raise alarm flags if anyone was paying attention. The Sharks couldn't be scattered all over the sky and still get the devastating time-on-target effect that all of them launching together from the same bearing delivered. And duplication of effort also meant duplication of detection chances. All of the ships being co-located minimized the chances of some freak occurrence causing one to be detected.