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And on the third... Spoilers

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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by tlb   » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:01 pm

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phillies wrote:I would have enjoyed the scene in which the SLN CNO advises the Gang of Five Mandarins that the missile attack on that final target included several remarkably late detonations, the death toll was THAT WOULD BE TELLING, and it appeared possible that the Grand Alliance was going to be slightly annoyed with the Solarian League.

kzt wrote:Well, that didn’t happen. Check the timeline. Fleet had hype red out previous to the operation. They had pretty much no idea what the hell they were talking about. It’s also like the US blaming the Israelis for 9/11.

ldwechsler wrote:The military almost always lies. During WWII, there were specialists to debrief individual pilots to confirm kills. But there were a lot of reports that were nonsense.

No difference in this universe. The pols do what the pols do and if they control the media, few people know about disasters.

It seems excessive to say the military almost always lies: in Britain during WW1 (and after) it was the government that made sure historians would put the proper slant on things; such as insisting that whatever the British death toll for a battle, that of the Germans was worse. Accounting for kills in aerial combat is tricky, because it is easy to double count when several planes shot at one that went down. When did gun cameras go into general use?
Strangely the government does not seem to have complete control of the Solarian media, but it still manages to get its spin on the news to be generally accepted.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by phillies   » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:02 pm

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kzt wrote:
phillies wrote:I would have enjoyed the scene in which the SLN CNO advises the Gang of Five Mandarins that the missile attack on that final target included several remarkably late detonations, the death toll was THAT WOULD BE TELLING, and it appeared possible that the Grand Alliance was going to be slightly annoyed with the Solarian League.

Well, that didn’t happen. Check the timeline. Fleet had hype red out previous to the operation. They had pretty much no idea what the hell they were talking about. It’s also like the US blaming the Israelis for 9/11.


You're assuming that the CNO has no information sources other than the cruisers that hypered out in time. That could be true, but that would be unusually stupid, even for the SLN.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:21 pm

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phillies wrote:I would have enjoyed the scene in which the SLN CNO advises the Gang of Five Mandarins that the missile attack on that final target included several remarkably late detonations, the death toll was THAT WOULD BE TELLING, and it appeared possible that the Grand Alliance was going to be slightly annoyed with the Solarian League.


kzt wrote:Well, that didn’t happen. Check the timeline. Fleet had hype red out previous to the operation. They had pretty much no idea what the hell they were talking about. It’s also like the US blaming the Israelis for 9/11.


phillies wrote:
You're assuming that the CNO has no information sources other than the cruisers that hypered out in time. That could be true, but that would be unusually stupid, even for the SLN.


Check the discussion with the Mandarins that begins on p.691 (find on "So much for our wonderful secret weapon,". There is no suggestion that they know that the habitats blew up, and what was left of the fleet has been in-system for 11 hours.

Also see the mini-chapter on p.698 ("Gweon allowed himself a final grimace") where Gweon drops dead. It's four days later, and his entire monolog preparing for it has to do with saving his position - there is still nothing about the habitats, which he has been briefed on how to handle via message from Alpha Prime.

Also, look at the bottom of p. 701 ("Our ships were busy withdrawing"). It's absolutely clear they don't have a clue about the habitats yet.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by phillies   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:42 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
phillies wrote:I would have enjoyed the scene in which the SLN CNO advises the Gang of Five Mandarins that the missile attack on that final target included several remarkably late detonations, the death toll was THAT WOULD BE TELLING, and it appeared possible that the Grand Alliance was going to be slightly annoyed with the Solarian League.


kzt wrote:Well, that didn’t happen. Check the timeline. Fleet had hype red out previous to the operation. They had pretty much no idea what the hell they were talking about. It’s also like the US blaming the Israelis for 9/11.


phillies wrote:
You're assuming that the CNO has no information sources other than the cruisers that hypered out in time. That could be true, but that would be unusually stupid, even for the SLN.


Check the discussion with the Mandarins that begins on p.691 (find on "So much for our wonderful secret weapon,". There is no suggestion that they know that the habitats blew up, and what was left of the fleet has been in-system for 11 hours.

Also see the mini-chapter on p.698 ("Gweon allowed himself a final grimace") where Gweon drops dead. It's four days later, and his entire monolog preparing for it has to do with saving his position - there is still nothing about the habitats, which he has been briefed on how to handle via message from Alpha Prime.

Also, look at the bottom of p. 701 ("Our ships were busy withdrawing"). It's absolutely clear they don't have a clue about the habitats yet.


That's my point. Rather before Honor Harrington came visiting, given that her advance ahd to get organized, get under way, and reach earth, there appeared to be enough time for at least fast news messenger ships to report on the event.

On a different note, what was done to earth has a rpecedent, the Baruch Plan for dealing with Germany.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:24 pm

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phillies wrote:That's my point. Rather before Honor Harrington came visiting, given that her advance ahd to get organized, get under way, and reach earth, there appeared to be enough time for at least fast news messenger ships to report on the event.

On a different note, what was done to earth has a precedent, the Baruch Plan for dealing with Germany.

If the information comes by news courier then the CNO will not know anything more than the Mandarins.

I tried to look up Baruch Plan, but Wikipedia only has a post war reference to an international atomic energy commission; nothing specific to dealing with Germany.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by phillies   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:31 pm

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tlb wrote:
phillies wrote:That's my point. Rather before Honor Harrington came visiting, given that her advance ahd to get organized, get under way, and reach earth, there appeared to be enough time for at least fast news messenger ships to report on the event.

On a different note, what was done to earth has a precedent, the Baruch Plan for dealing with Germany.

If the information comes by news courier then the CNO will not know anything more than the Mandarins.

I tried to look up Baruch Plan, but Wikipedia only has a post war reference to an international atomic energy commission; nothing specific to dealing with Germany.


True, but they will both know that Beowulf alpha beta gamma went kerblammo. They may even figure out that the Grand Alliance is going to be slightly annoyed.

The Baruch Plan was that Germany should be totally deindustrialized after the war, so that it could never again cause a world war. It would be permitted limited light industry for clothing, but would elsewise be limited to agricultural activities. No metal working. No machine tools. The plan was not adopted.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by tlb   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:16 pm

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phillies wrote:That's my point. Rather before Honor Harrington came visiting, given that her advance ahd to get organized, get under way, and reach earth, there appeared to be enough time for at least fast news messenger ships to report on the event.

On a different note, what was done to earth has a precedent, the Baruch Plan for dealing with Germany.

tlb wrote:If the information comes by news courier then the CNO will not know anything more than the Mandarins.

I tried to look up Baruch Plan, but Wikipedia only has a post war reference to an international atomic energy commission; nothing specific to dealing with Germany.

phillies wrote:True, but they will both know that Beowulf alpha beta gamma went kerblammo. They may even figure out that the Grand Alliance is going to be slightly annoyed.

The Baruch Plan was that Germany should be totally deindustrialized after the war, so that it could never again cause a world war. It would be permitted limited light industry for clothing, but would elsewise be limited to agricultural activities. No metal working. No machine tools. The plan was not adopted.

Thank you for that information; I have read more on the lead into WW2 and almost nothing about the aftermath.
But it sounds as though that is not what happened to Earth; which was basically being punished for the Buccaneer Option. However I do not remember anything forbidding Earth from rebuilding their orbital industries. It served as punishment and an example to the other core worlds of what would happen if the war was not ended.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:25 pm

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tlb wrote:
phillies wrote:That's my point. Rather before Honor Harrington came visiting, given that her advance ahd to get organized, get under way, and reach earth, there appeared to be enough time for at least fast news messenger ships to report on the event.

On a different note, what was done to earth has a precedent, the Baruch Plan for dealing with Germany.

If the information comes by news courier then the CNO will not know anything more than the Mandarins.

I tried to look up Baruch Plan, but Wikipedia only has a post war reference to an international atomic energy commission; nothing specific to dealing with Germany.


True, but they will both know that Beowulf alpha beta gamma went kerblammo. They may even figure out that the Grand Alliance is going to be slightly annoyed.

The Baruch Plan was that Germany should be totally deindustrialized after the war, so that it could never again cause a world war. It would be permitted limited light industry for clothing, but would elsewise be limited to agricultural activities. No metal working. No machine tools. The plan was not adopted.[/quote]


It was the Morgenthau Plan, named for the US Secretary of the Treasury and it was not adopted. Main reason was fear of rise of Nazis in fury at first but Russian interference and theft of just about all the tools, etc., in their area led the US, UK and France to build up West Germany.
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by Charybdis   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:53 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
tlb wrote:The Baruch Plan was that Germany should be totally deindustrialized after the war, so that it could never again cause a world war. It would be permitted limited light industry for clothing, but would elsewise be limited to agricultural activities. No metal working. No machine tools. The plan was not adopted.

It was the Morgenthau Plan, named for the US Secretary of the Treasury and it was not adopted. Main reason was fear of rise of Nazis in fury at first but Russian interference and theft of just about all the tools, etc., in their area led the US, UK and France to build up West Germany.


We, the post-WW2 generations, tend to forget why such plans (Baruch & Morgenthau) made sense at the time they were proposed. Prussia/Germany, during and after its 19th century 'consolidation' following the Napoleonic Era, was a flat-out aggressive country. In 1795, Prussia joined with Russia and Hapsburg Austria to wipe Poland off of the map in a total partition of the country.

In 1864 there was the Schleswig Wars where land was annexed from Denmark under joint Prussian & Austrian forces. This was quickly followed in 1866 with the Austro-Prussian War where Prussia further consolidated the borders of what would become Imperial Germany by taking formerly independent polities (duchies, counties, principalities) that had been affiliated with Austria.

In 1870, Napoleon III foolishly attacked Prussia over a dispute concerning the Spanish Monarchy succession. The war ended in 6 months with Napoleon III captured and portions of French provinces Alsace & Lorraine being added to Prussia. While this war was going on and the Prussians were besieging Paris, the German Empire was proclaimed at the French Palace of Versailles (1871).

Add the WW1 and WW2 aggressions and you can see where our predecessors got the viewpoint of a totally demilitarized and forced agrarian-only Germany. The active aggression of Stalin & the Soviet Union from the 1920s on made these plans untenable and thus we have BMWs to drive. :lol:
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Re: And on the third... Spoilers
Post by tlb   » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:48 pm

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phillies wrote:The Baruch Plan was that Germany should be totally deindustrialized after the war, so that it could never again cause a world war. It would be permitted limited light industry for clothing, but would elsewise be limited to agricultural activities. No metal working. No machine tools. The plan was not adopted.

ldwechsler wrote:It was the Morgenthau Plan, named for the US Secretary of the Treasury and it was not adopted. Main reason was fear of rise of Nazis in fury at first but Russian interference and theft of just about all the tools, etc., in their area led the US, UK and France to build up West Germany.

Charybdis wrote:We, the post-WW2 generations, tend to forget why such plans (Baruch & Morgenthau) made sense at the time they were proposed. Prussia/Germany, during and after its 19th century 'consolidation' following the Napoleonic Era, was a flat-out aggressive country. In 1795, Prussia joined with Russia and Hapsburg Austria to wipe Poland off of the map in a total partition of the country.

In 1864 there was the Schleswig Wars where land was annexed from Denmark under joint Prussian & Austrian forces. This was quickly followed in 1866 with the Austro-Prussian War where Prussia further consolidated the borders of what would become Imperial Germany by taking formerly independent polities (duchies, counties, principalities) that had been affiliated with Austria.

In 1870, Napoleon III foolishly attacked Prussia over a dispute concerning the Spanish Monarchy succession. The war ended in 6 months with Napoleon III captured and portions of French provinces Alsace & Lorraine being added to Prussia. While this war was going on and the Prussians were besieging Paris, the German Empire was proclaimed at the French Palace of Versailles (1871).

Add the WW1 and WW2 aggressions and you can see where our predecessors got the viewpoint of a totally demilitarized and forced agrarian-only Germany. The active aggression of Stalin & the Soviet Union from the 1920s on made these plans untenable and thus we have BMWs to drive. :lol:

Fixed the attribution that had me saying something that came from Phillies.
Some of what you list as German aggression could be included in the consolidation of the German state out of the patchwork of duchies, principalities and so on. It seems more aggressive to us because it was more recent; the similar activities that united Britain or France were ancient history by then. The unification of Italy was less prominent.
Certainly Poland's partition was aggressive, but Alsace & Lorraine have a more contentious history over whether they are French or German.

PS. The Baruch Plan had to do with international control of atomic energy and not Germany according to Wikipedia.
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