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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:59 pm

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I will toss my hat into the metaphor ring.

The SLN is a polygamist with more wives than the most licentious Protector of Grayson. The SLN's 1,000 wives eagerly spread their thighs for the big hairy ape, but they refuse to feed him.

The big hairy ape takes to raiding the kitchens of the neighbors for sustenance which escalates to the big hairy ape raping the neighbors' wives and daughters. Some of the SLN wives are in denial, some are glad that they don't have to put out to the big hairy ape so often. All the SLN wives rationalize that the big hairy ape isn't beating and raping them or their children so they can accept it.

Beawulf is hoping that she can convince the other wives to help her restrain their husband from raiding and raping the neighbors but they refuse. Observing the escalating Haven sector wars reminds them that they should have a big hairy ape to protect them.

Beawulf knows that RMN weapons technology is superior to the hairy ape's weapons teechnology. However, Beawulf understands that not even her new boyfriend the Kung Fu master can defeat the 800 pound hairy ape. He will get in some good punches but the ape is eventually going to his arms in a bow knot, avulse his testicles then ape rape him.

More importantly, Beawulf's boyfriend is just barely holding his own against Haven. Manticore would be defeated if not for the unexpected alliance with the Andermandi. Even so, it is a very close contest until the BoM which leaves the RMN victorious but with barely enough ships to guard her home systems from a follow on attack.

The only event that makes it plausible that Beawulf's new boyfriend might be able to hold his own against the hairy ape is the miraculous alliance with Haven. Then Oyster Bay blows away the boyfriend's testicles.

Beawulf takes the chance of announcing her separation from the hairy ape because she is confident that the hairy ape will not beat her and rape HER daughters. She finds out she is wrong the hard way.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by TheMadPenguin   » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:33 pm

TheMadPenguin

1: Beowulf leaving SL really is Beowulf leaving MAlign who will continue to render bigger parts of the SL as its sock puppets.

2: Karma is Murphey's bastard red-headed step child. Bad attitude included free of charge.

3:Beowulf is a planet, an industry base, and a population. It's also a worm hole. The industry and the population can jump up to Manticore (too bad they can't take their habitable world with them) and then just guard the worm hole.

If they did rig sails to get the planet into the worlmhole, said wormhole would thereafter NOT FUNCTION for a few hundred years.

4: If Beowulf wants to teach, sanity begs to find willing students and focus on them. There's open soil on Manticore, Gryphen, Sphynx, and Greyson. Tester's at bat.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by TheMadPenguin   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:17 am

TheMadPenguin

cthia wrote:Every time I yell treason, all of you come at me with pitchforks. But how was Beowulf's actions not treasonous?

1: There was no war declared. Therefore no treason against the League.
2: Passing news of the unlawful 400-waller invasion to attempt to prevent another Spindle, or to mitigate the totality of destruction to anybody/everybody, is not treason. It's letting the US know that an army of Cartel gunman is coming to take control of the US/Mex border. Manticore must know of the not-at-war strike force coming to commit acts of war, or there is a betrayed friendship.

cthia wrote:They were married to the League and found a new boyfriend. But you've got the obligation to end your previous relationship properly.
There was more intermarriage between Manticore and Beowulf than between Beowulf and Sol.

cthia wrote:Treason is not the note you should end your previous relationship on. It's a total act of disrespect.

This mirrors to the campaign of violence and disrespect shown by the Mandarins, the League, and Sol towards Beowulf and SKM/SEM.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:18 am

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TheMadPenguin wrote:
cthia wrote:Every time I yell treason, all of you come at me with pitchforks. But how was Beowulf's actions not treasonous?

1: There was no war declared. Therefore no treason against the League.
2: Passing news of the unlawful 400-waller invasion to attempt to prevent another Spindle, or to mitigate the totality of destruction to anybody/everybody, is not treason. It's letting the US know that an army of Cartel gunman is coming to take control of the US/Mex border. Manticore must know of the not-at-war strike force coming to commit acts of war, or there is a betrayed friendship.
cthia wrote:They were married to the League and found a new boyfriend. But you've got the obligation to end your previous relationship properly.

There was more intermarriage between Manticore and Beowulf than between Beowulf and Sol.
cthia wrote:Treason is not the note you should end your previous relationship on. It's a total act of disrespect.

This mirrors to the campaign of violence and disrespect shown by the Mandarins, the League, and Sol towards Beowulf and SKM/SEM.

If only it were that easy, then this thread would have ended after a page or two. He bases his claim of treason, not on a state of war, but on a theory of "implied responsibilities". Arguing against implied responsibilities is like arguing against ghosts: you can claim they do not exist, because they are never seen; but the rejoinder will be that you can not see them, because they are invisible.
It might be more profitable to argue that the Mandarins hate Beowulf, because the people of that planet represent a threat to their power and position. The League bureaucrats want a declaration of war, but an Assembly vote on that requires unanimous consent. Why a declaration, when a state of war already exists? Because like the situation in Manticore during Field of Dishonor, it permits certain actions that include the transfer of powers from the members to the government: see for example the discussions between Beowulf and the SLN about the wormhole before Raging Justice.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:52 am

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Keeping my imagery more mundane, I think that CTHIA has a very valid point. From the perspective of the Mandarins, Beawulf is guilty of betraying the SL. The charge of treason is all the more credible because Beawulf along with all of the SL core worlds were willing to turn a blind eye to the gratuitous abuses of the SLN, FF and OFS. Any moral outrage about the attack on Manticore is pure hypocrosy.

Of course the written constitution of the SL gives Beawulf the explicit right to secceed. But rights like muscles tend to atrophy when they are not exercised.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:13 am

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Keeping my imagery more mundane, I think that CTHIA has a very valid point. From the perspective of the Mandarins, Beawulf is guilty of betraying the SL. The charge of treason is all the more credible because Beawulf along with all of the SL core worlds were willing to turn a blind eye to the gratuitous abuses of the SLN, FF and OFS. Any moral outrage about the attack on Manticore is pure hypocrosy.

Of course the written constitution of the SL gives Beawulf the explicit right to secceed. But rights like muscles tend to atrophy when they are not exercised.

The point though is more than just the perspective of the Mandarins; he believes that Beowulf is objectively guilty of treason, not just subjectively.
Considering the SL Constitution; I found a post from RFC that is pertinent (the snip removes a paragraph about US amendments which triggered a discussion that caused Duckk to close the thread):
Alistair wrote:In Pearls of Weber it states:
If Beowulf had wished at any time to become a member star system of the Star Kingdom of Manticore, it could legally have done so. The Solarian League Constitution, like that of the Republic of Haven, enshrines the right of self-determination by its member systems, and the right of any member system to withdraw from the League. No full member system has ever attempted to do so, and the possible consequences of such an attempt might be interesting, but the legal right exists and is recognized by all constitutional scholars.

If Beowulf right to leave is recognised by ALL "constitutional scholars" then do the Mandarins have a leg to stand on in the court of public opinion when Beowulf leaves the SL?

runsforcelery wrote:The question here isn't whether or not Beowulf has a legal right as defined by the Constitution to leave the League; it's whether or not the constitutional provision is still operable, despite never having been repealed or formally amended.
-- snip --
The SL’s constitution is several times as old as the present US Constitution, and (in many ways) constitutional law is much less well developed in the SL than in the US because the SL’s constitution has been essentially ignored in so many ways during the evolution of the present bureaucratic system. The sheer age of that bureaucratic system --- fact that it's been in existence and effectively unchallenged for so many centuries --- only reinforces that tendency and obscures the theoretically clear limitations on governmental power in general. Thus the right to secede from the League is in fact recognized by “all” constitutional authorities as existing in law but is not universally recognized as existing in fact. This is an important distinction, and one which is, unfortunately, often lost sight of by people who believe in the rules of law.

For example, US history is replete with presidents , congresses, and (especially) agencies which have cheerfully ignored constitutional restrictions until/unless they were brought up short by the courts . . . and in some cases, even after being ruled against by the courts. I’m sure quite a few US citizens will recall FDR’s attempt to pack the Supreme Court when the Court began ruling his anti-Depression programs unconstitutional. Going farther back in time we have Andrew Jackson defying the Marshall Court in Worcester v. Georgia, and present day federal agencies like the IRS are notorious for nonacquiescence — that is, for deliberately ignoring court decisions which go against them and refusing to accept their validity as binding precedent. In the final analysis, the rule of law — the ability of the judiciary to enforce its interpretation of law on the rest of government — depends upon the willingness of the rest of the government to allow itself to be so bound. The US idea is that the balance of powers between the branches will produce not just rivalries but also natural alliances between them, in the sense of each branch safeguarding its own power from encroachment by the others and combining to prevent any one branch from usurping its/their powers. The equation depends upon balance, however, and once the balance begins slipping, it’s almost inevitable that one branch or the other will begin amassing a disproportionate share of power at the cost of the other branches, regardless of anything the letter of the law may say.

Mandarins, anyone?
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:04 pm

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TheMadPenguin wrote:
cthia wrote:Every time I yell treason, all of you come at me with pitchforks. But how was Beowulf's actions not treasonous?

1: There was no war declared. Therefore no treason against the League.
2: Passing news of the unlawful 400-waller invasion to attempt to prevent another Spindle, or to mitigate the totality of destruction to anybody/everybody, is not treason. It's letting the US know that an army of Cartel gunman is coming to take control of the US/Mex border. Manticore must know of the not-at-war strike force coming to commit acts of war, or there is a betrayed friendship.
cthia wrote:They were married to the League and found a new boyfriend. But you've got the obligation to end your previous relationship properly.

There was more intermarriage between Manticore and Beowulf than between Beowulf and Sol.
cthia wrote:Treason is not the note you should end your previous relationship on. It's a total act of disrespect.

This mirrors to the campaign of violence and disrespect shown by the Mandarins, the League, and Sol towards Beowulf and SKM/SEM.

tlb wrote:If only it were that easy, then this thread would have ended after a page or two. He bases his claim of treason, not on a state of war, but on a theory of "implied responsibilities". Arguing against implied responsibilities is like arguing against ghosts: you can claim they do not exist, because they are never seen; but the rejoinder will be that you can not see them, because they are invisible.
It might be more profitable to argue that the Mandarins hate Beowulf, because the people of that planet represent a threat to their power and position. The League bureaucrats want a declaration of war, but an Assembly vote on that requires unanimous consent. Why a declaration, when a state of war already exists? Because like the situation in Manticore during Field of Dishonor, it permits certain actions that include the transfer of powers from the members to the government: see for example the discussions between Beowulf and the SLN about the wormhole before Raging Justice.

Thank you tlb. You've come a long way. Though I fear the ceramecrete still hasn't quite set up. I'll accept your explanation that it is a "theory" of "implied responsibilities." Though I consider it more an obvious fact. And I'd much prefer the more descriptive longhand version to dissuade misunderstanding. . .

It is a theory of implied responsibilities on Mandarin/SLN/certain SL citizen sensibilities as felt by them. I'm not sure it is quite clear that the charge of treason is what is felt by the above participants. It is obvious to me and I chose to share it. And yes, I think the Mandarins may have a point - regardless of how criminal they are.
Arguing against implied responsibilities is like arguing against ghosts: you can claim they do not exist, because they are never seen; but the rejoinder will be that you can not see them, because they are invisible.
One of the most difficult tasks I have in this thread is disseminating the fact that arguing against how the Mandarins feel is pointless. It doesn't matter how we as readers or Beowulf, or the SEM or the GA feels. It is about how the Gorilla feels.

Let's draw another parallel. Treason is a weapon of mass destruction. It didn't matter whether anyone else felt Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. It was how Bush, his administration and certain American people felt. It is the US who meted out punishment. In the end, it is how the one who is wronged feels -- if he who is wronged has the bigger hammer.

Another analogy which I hope doesn't cause as much trouble, is that of a mob, the mafia, or that of a gang. Beowulf was in what amounted to the mob. The only way out was to die out.

Many here continue to try and make it a discussion about legalities and Constitutions. There is no Constitution within the framework of the mafia, the mob, or of gangs. There are only infractions against gang mentality. They have their own rules and shit rolls down hill. Does anyone doubt that an infraction by a member of the mob - against mob mentality - will have any bearing on that member's life simply because it isn't an infraction against the Constitution?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:09 pm

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tlb wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Keeping my imagery more mundane, I think that CTHIA has a very valid point. From the perspective of the Mandarins, Beawulf is guilty of betraying the SL. The charge of treason is all the more credible because Beawulf along with all of the SL core worlds were willing to turn a blind eye to the gratuitous abuses of the SLN, FF and OFS. Any moral outrage about the attack on Manticore is pure hypocrosy.

Of course the written constitution of the SL gives Beawulf the explicit right to secceed. But rights like muscles tend to atrophy when they are not exercised.

The point though is more than just the perspective of the Mandarins; he believes that Beowulf is objectively guilty of treason, not just subjectively.
Considering the SL Constitution; I found a post from RFC that is pertinent (the snip removes a paragraph about US amendments which triggered a discussion that caused Duckk to close the thread):
Alistair wrote:In Pearls of Weber it states:
If Beowulf had wished at any time to become a member star system of the Star Kingdom of Manticore, it could legally have done so. The Solarian League Constitution, like that of the Republic of Haven, enshrines the right of self-determination by its member systems, and the right of any member system to withdraw from the League. No full member system has ever attempted to do so, and the possible consequences of such an attempt might be interesting, but the legal right exists and is recognized by all constitutional scholars.

If Beowulf right to leave is recognised by ALL "constitutional scholars" then do the Mandarins have a leg to stand on in the court of public opinion when Beowulf leaves the SL?

runsforcelery wrote:The question here isn't whether or not Beowulf has a legal right as defined by the Constitution to leave the League; it's whether or not the constitutional provision is still operable, despite never having been repealed or formally amended.
-- snip --
The SL’s constitution is several times as old as the present US Constitution, and (in many ways) constitutional law is much less well developed in the SL than in the US because the SL’s constitution has been essentially ignored in so many ways during the evolution of the present bureaucratic system. The sheer age of that bureaucratic system --- fact that it's been in existence and effectively unchallenged for so many centuries --- only reinforces that tendency and obscures the theoretically clear limitations on governmental power in general. Thus the right to secede from the League is in fact recognized by “all” constitutional authorities as existing in law but is not universally recognized as existing in fact. This is an important distinction, and one which is, unfortunately, often lost sight of by people who believe in the rules of law.

For example, US history is replete with presidents , congresses, and (especially) agencies which have cheerfully ignored constitutional restrictions until/unless they were brought up short by the courts . . . and in some cases, even after being ruled against by the courts. I’m sure quite a few US citizens will recall FDR’s attempt to pack the Supreme Court when the Court began ruling his anti-Depression programs unconstitutional. Going farther back in time we have Andrew Jackson defying the Marshall Court in Worcester v. Georgia, and present day federal agencies like the IRS are notorious for nonacquiescence — that is, for deliberately ignoring court decisions which go against them and refusing to accept their validity as binding precedent. In the final analysis, the rule of law — the ability of the judiciary to enforce its interpretation of law on the rest of government — depends upon the willingness of the rest of the government to allow itself to be so bound. The US idea is that the balance of powers between the branches will produce not just rivalries but also natural alliances between them, in the sense of each branch safeguarding its own power from encroachment by the others and combining to prevent any one branch from usurping its/their powers. The equation depends upon balance, however, and once the balance begins slipping, it’s almost inevitable that one branch or the other will begin amassing a disproportionate share of power at the cost of the other branches, regardless of anything the letter of the law may say.

Mandarins, anyone?


Golly Gee Whizz, I wonder which of the Constitutional Amendment s provoked the Fecal Storm that compelled Duckk to close the thread?

Could you PM the snip to me?
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:51 pm

tlb
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Posts: 1994
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Golly Gee Whizz, I wonder which of the Constitutional Amendment s provoked the Fecal Storm that compelled Duckk to close the thread?

Could you PM the snip to me?

If once upon a time you were known as "namelessfly", then I expect you know very well what the discussion was; as that person made the last post before Duckk shut things down. If not, then the thread was called "Beowulf right to leave the SL" and the thread was closed on Wednesday, 11 June 2014. That is on page 77 for me.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:19 pm

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tlb wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Golly Gee Whizz, I wonder which of the Constitutional Amendment s provoked the Fecal Storm that compelled Duckk to close the thread?

Could you PM the snip to me?

If once upon a time you were known as "namelessfly", then I expect you know very well what the discussion was; as that person made the last post before Duckk shut things down. If not, then the thread was called "Beowulf right to leave the SL" and the thread was closed on Wednesday, 11 June 2014. That is on page 77 for me.



Let's not play games. As RFC wrote, it's not whether or not there was a right to leave, it's up to the people involved. The Mandarins knew Beowulf had the right to leave but it would have looked very bad for them and could have led to a lot of planets leaving...as it did later.
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