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Son of GOD EXISTS

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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:53 pm

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Exidor wrote:Further quotes will be following your user ID in actual quotes, as I'm having issues with some of the coding here...

Placing multiple quotes in a post is very simple. Click on 'Post a reply' at upper right and start typing. When you want to quote from another post:

1. Scroll down to the desired previous post
2. Highlight the part you want to quote
3. Click 'Quote Exidor' (or whatever username) at the top of that post

The highlighted text will be placed after the cursor, properly enclosed in 'quote' and '/quote' HTML commands for the selected user.

I had trouble with quotes copied from Mac TextEdit. I discovered that the double-quotes around the username had been transformed into open-double-quote and close-double-quote, which are NOT 0x22. This confused the web site's posting mechanism.
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There is no shortage of people convinced they can create the perfect world. Trouble is, they all start out by fucking up this one.
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Exidor   » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:56 pm

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Annachie wrote:For obvious reasons, as you seem to actually be religious and not a con man.


Thank you.
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Exidor   » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:00 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:Placing multiple quotes in a post is very simple.


Yes - simple enough for me to screw up and lose patience with myself. >laughter<
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by smr   » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:51 pm

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbiS6fWr1Kg

An Atheist scientist verses a Cambridge Professor. (1st 6 minutes but I watched the entire video!)
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:29 pm

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Well, I saw a distinguished-looking gent with a smooth British accent prop up a bunch of straw-men and set them on fire. I listened to him cite one authority figure after another. Has he never heard of argumentum ad verecundiam? Does he not know the Ancient Greeks called bullshit on that logical fallacy 2,500 years ago?

What I did not hear was one piece of evidence, or one logical deduction based on evidence.

Ravi Zacharias wrote:Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence?

Has anyone provided any evidence of your god’s existence, Ravi? You’re the one making the claims, you have to provide the evidence. You can’t just proclaim, ‘Magic exists and you can’t prove it doesn’t!’ like it means anything.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam is a low and deceitful tactic, but it’s what I’ve come to expect from those claiming that a bunch of old tales are Absolute Truth. I can play that game, too; has anyone provided a proof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s non-existence? That one is called reductio ad absurdum, by the way.

You really should take the trouble to learn some things that aren’t in that book of yours.

Ravi Zacharias wrote:The moment you claim a truth claim, you’re violating determinism.

OK, somebody tell me what that is supposed to mean, if anything. Tell me how it’s relevant to the arguments, and why anybody would believe it proves that religion is right, and science is wrong.

He goes on a lot about determinism. It seems to be one of his favorite straw-men, that science equals determinism. It’s like he’s unable to see any possibilities other than ‘Goddidit’ or a perfectly deterministic clockwork universe. As if without his god, no form of choice, chance or free will is possible. So, let's hang a false dichotomy around the straw-man's neck.

Quantum mechanics precludes any form of strict determinism. There can only be probabilistic determinism, which leaves plenty of room for choice and free will. Ravi has no excuse for being ignorant of these facts; Albert Einstein received a Nobel Prize in 1921 for using quantum theory to explain the photoelectric effect.

Ravi Zacharias wrote:Reality deals with metaphysics.

No, dude, reality deals with reality. Metaphysics deals with the unreal.

Ravi Zacharias wrote:If the scientific premises turn out to be true that we are the random collocation of atoms, of time plus matter plus chance, you will be left with no moral perspective on which to condemn anybody who chooses to behead someone in public and gloat over it, because those are moral issues we are dealing with and science doesn’t deal with morality, and if it talks about the evolution of morality then it is deterministic and if it is deterministic it is not making a true assertion and therefore if it says that morality is not true, the assertion itself either claims to be true or is not true, and if it claims to be true then it goes beyond science.

That’s his closing statement. Long-winded bugger, ain’t he? I would never allow such an atrocious run-on sentence to appear in any of my stories, much less say it in public.

Grammatical abuses aside, what we have here is a rather overcomplicated summary of the fundamental arrogance and stupidity of The Faithful — their unsupported claim that it is impossible for us to create a valid, fair and functional morality on our own. That it requires some sort of mystical intervention from The Great Ghu to tell us that wanton murder is wrong.

There is one aspect of morality that is indispensable to science — telling the truth. A dishonest scientist is a failure and an embarrassment. From there, how much of a stretch is it to apply honesty to your personal life?

Overall, he does little more than trot out a lot of tired old arguments that have already been debunked and discredited a thousand times over. Nothing new to see here.

That’s not really a surprise, is it? These religious types never have any new arguments, because they have to get everything from that same old collection of Bronze Age fairy tales. They’re like a group of stand-up comics who haven’t gotten any new material in 1,600 years. Of course we’ve heard all the jokes before!
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Maybe The Faithful really do need some all-seeing, all-powerful, judgemental entity standing over them with a stick to tell them that murder is wrong. I don’t. I guess I’m just better than that.
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Last edited by Imaginos1892 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Exidor   » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:23 am

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smr wrote: An Atheist scientist verses a Cambridge Professor.


What does it say about the content and audience when reading the comments is more entertaining than the video?

Youtube *is* supposed to be entertaining, isn't it?

FWIW, I've never been a member of the "Science vs Religion" club. My view there is rather simple: Scripture tells what the Creator did; Science tries to figure out how it was done - and neither have *all* the answers (I've not found and chapter and verse in any version of the Bible that tells how to figure out the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow - African or European. I'm fairly certain the answer is not 42...).

Hmph... from the Bible, to Monty Python to Douglas Adams. Sounds like the beginning of an entertaining word game for social hour. Need some puns, I think.

>mosey's off to think<
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:16 pm

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Exidor wrote:FWIW, I've never been a member of the "Science vs Religion" club. My view there is rather simple: Scripture tells what the Creator did; Science tries to figure out how it was done - and neither have *all* the answers (I've not found and chapter and verse in any version of the Bible that tells how to figure out the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow - African or European. I'm fairly certain the answer is not 42...).



Except one problem with that... saying neither one has all the answers implies they both have some portion of the answers split between them.

I have not once, in my entire life, seen religion answer a question. Respond to questions with unsupported assertions, yes... but not answer a question. Because religion has no mechanism or framework for doing that.
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Imaginos1892   » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:53 pm

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Okay, Ravi’s ravings brought back to me one of the God-pushers’ most annoying habits — endlessly repeating their baseless claims that we need their imaginary man in the sky to tell us that murder is wrong. That’s in addition to a lot of other things people should not do, but let’s stick with murder for simplicity. They want us to believe that we don’t have the moral right to decide on our own that murder is wrong. That knowing what the world would be like if murder were not wrong is insufficient reason to condemn it.

I think all but a very few obviously insane people would agree that civilization is preferable to savagery. That life within a cooperative community is better than an existence in which only the strongest, meanest and most brutal can survive. Even the brutes would agree.

Human civilization is not possible without laws. There might be intelligent beings somewhere who don’t need laws to allow them to live together and cooperate, but we are not them. As soon as two people decide to cooperate instead of killing each other, they need laws, if only implicit ones, and the first law HAS to be, ‘Do not kill the person you have agreed to cooperate with’.

To me, that seems a simple and inescapable truth. Why can The Faithful not understand it?

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Something else I’ve been wondering: Where in The Bible does it say that rape is wrong? Which Commandment is that?

What? There isn’t one? Really? You’d think that at least one of those ‘religions of peace and love’ would say ‘Thou shalt not rape’ SOMEWHERE. Like, right after ‘Thou shalt not kill’. Definitely before ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery’ because rape is worse than adultery, isn’t it? Isn’t it?

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When I was a child, my parents taught me a lot of rules. They told me that it was wrong to lie, cheat, steal, pick on my brothers, or hurt people without cause. They had the authority, and the power, to enforce those rules most of the time. I resented the rules sometimes, occasionally broke them, and even got away with it, once in a while.

As I grew up I began to understand the reasons behind the rules. I saw examples of what happens when people go around breaking the rules. I got some idea of how horrendous a world without such rules would be. I learned to obey those rules not from simple fear of punishment, but a far greater fear of the real consequences of not having them.

That’s part of growing up. Advancing from rote obedience to understanding and self-discipline.

For those who never grow up, there will always be only the rules, imposed by authority without explanation, enforced by power without appeal, and obeyed by rote, without understanding.

Sound a lot like religion to you?
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Last edited by Imaginos1892 on Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:56 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:Okay, Ravi’s ravings brought back to me one of the God-pushers’ most annoying habits — endlessly repeating their baseless claims that we need their imaginary man in the sky to tell us that murder is wrong. That’s in addition to a lot of other things people should not do, but let’s stick with murder for simplicity. They want us to believe that we don’t have the moral right to decide on our own that murder is wrong. That knowing what the world would be like if murder were not wrong is insufficient reason to condemn it.

I think all but a very few obviously insane people would agree that civilization is preferable to savagery. That life within a cooperative community is better than an existence in which only the strongest, meanest and most brutal can survive. Even the brutes would agree.

Human civilization is not possible without laws. There might be intelligent beings somewhere who don’t need laws to allow them to live together and cooperate, be we are not them. As soon as two people decide to cooperate instead of killing each other, they need laws, if only implicit ones, and the first law HAS to be, ‘Do not kill the person you have agreed to cooperate with’.

To me, that seems a simple and inescapable truth. Why can The Faithful not understand it?

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Something else I’ve been wondering: Where in The Bible does it say that rape is wrong? Which Commandment is that?

What? There isn’t one? Really? You’d think that at least one of those ‘religions of peace and love’ would say ‘Thou shalt not rape’ SOMEWHERE. Like, right after ‘Thou shalt not kill’. Definitely before ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery’ because rape is worse than adultery, isn’t it? Isn’t it?

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When I was a child, my parents taught me a lot of rules. They told me that it was wrong to lie, cheat, steal, pick on my brothers, or hurt people without cause. They had the authority, and the power, to enforce those rules most of the time. I resented the rules sometimes, occasionally broke them, and even got away with it, once in a while.

As I grew up I began to understand the reasons behind the rules. I saw examples of what happens when people go around breaking the rules. I got some idea of how horrendous a world without such rules would be. I learned to obey those rules not from simple fear of punishment, but a far greater fear of the real consequences of not having them.

That’s part of growing up. Advancing from rote obedience to understanding and self-discipline.

For those who never grow up, there will always be only the rules, imposed by authority without explanation, enforced by power without appeal, and obeyed by rote, without understanding.

Sound a lot like religion to you?


Choosing only to field this particular one at the moment. . .

Something else I’ve been wondering: Where in The Bible does it say that rape is wrong? Which Commandment is that?


I'm not qualified to speak for you or for anybody else for that matter, but unless you or anyone else would enjoy being raped, I think Matthew 7:12 should just about cover it. . .

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:26 am

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cthia wrote:I'm not qualified to speak for you or for anybody else for that matter, but unless you or anyone else would enjoy being raped, I think Matthew 7:12 should just about cover it. . .

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Well, okay, that covers everything, doesn't it? Why did they see the need to repeat all those other Commandments, then? They're just redundant!

But, how is that to be reconciled with stoning a woman to death for adultery, or many of the other things found in that book? A whole lot of the people in those stories, and their god too, not only allow but encourage atrocities. Some atrocities are required by their rules!
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Facts do not depend on opinions. Unfortunately, for far too many people, opinions do not depend on facts, either.
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