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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by n7axw   » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:44 pm

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kzt wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:
So nice job with your guess. Though a small mass transit that size seems to be the worst of both worlds. Less ships per hour than single file, less concentrated firepower than a max transit -- but all far more suicidal than attacking after reaching the system through hyper.



That's why Beowulf actually helped the SLN. Had they sent more than 17 ships at once they might have had a total disaster, losing all of them and shutting the junction for days.

If they sent 17, they would have been on their own for a couple of days.

At seven, it would have close for an hour. And seven ships would be destroyed or taken. And the next group could go in.

One by one would be tough since they would start getting hit right from the beginning. A couple might get in before a surrender took place but if there were a battle, each new ship would present a really nice target.

Look at the 8th fleet transit before the BoM turkey shoot. How many SDs did they mass transit?[/quote]

Textev from EoH states that had White Haven made a mass transit of Eighth Fleet's SDs to Basilisk in response to the Peeps attack, he could have transited 22 SDs which would have loccked down the junction for 17 hours.

I doubt that Tsang would have gotten a different result by mass transiting her Sds than by coming through one at a time. Either way they would have been mascured.



Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:54 am

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n7axw wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:
So nice job with your guess. Though a small mass transit that size seems to be the worst of both worlds. Less ships per hour than single file, less concentrated firepower than a max transit -- but all far more suicidal than attacking after reaching the system through hyper.



That's why Beowulf actually helped the SLN. Had they sent more than 17 ships at once they might have had a total disaster, losing all of them and shutting the junction for days.

If they sent 17, they would have been on their own for a couple of days.

At seven, it would have close for an hour. And seven ships would be destroyed or taken. And the next group could go in.

One by one would be tough since they would start getting hit right from the beginning. A couple might get in before a surrender took place but if there were a battle, each new ship would present a really nice target.

Look at the 8th fleet transit before the BoM turkey shoot. How many SDs did they mass transit?[/quote]

Textev from EoH states that had White Haven made a mass transit of Eighth Fleet's SDs to Basilisk in response to the Peeps attack, he could have transited 22 SDs which would have loccked down the junction for 17 hours.

I doubt that Tsang would have gotten a different result by mass transiting her Sds than by coming through one at a time. Either way they would have been mascured.



Don

-[/quote]

Keep in mind that each junction gate is a bit different. But sending in too many ships is a disaster. And sending too few means they get picked off.

It was bad planning.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:57 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
It was bad planning.

It was insane. Like someone wanted a nice film of SLN SDs marching into a giant grinder. Oh, right. That was entirely the plan. Or Beowulf would stop them and that could be used too.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Joat42   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:43 am

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kzt wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:
So nice job with your guess. Though a small mass transit that size seems to be the worst of both worlds. Less ships per hour than single file, less concentrated firepower than a max transit -- but all far more suicidal than attacking after reaching the system through hyper.



That's why Beowulf actually helped the SLN. Had they sent more than 17 ships at once they might have had a total disaster, losing all of them and shutting the junction for days.

If they sent 17, they would have been on their own for a couple of days.

At seven, it would have close for an hour. And seven ships would be destroyed or taken. And the next group could go in.

One by one would be tough since they would start getting hit right from the beginning. A couple might get in before a surrender took place but if there were a battle, each new ship would present a really nice target.

Look at the 8th fleet transit before the BoM turkey shoot. How many SDs did they mass transit?[/quote]
ART, chapter 7, excerpt wrote:The ceiling on any simultaneous mass transit of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction was around two hundred million tons. That meant the largest force the SLN could throw through the Beowulf Terminus in a single wave would be about thirty of its Scientist-class superdreadnoughts, after which the terminus would be destabilized and useless for over seventeen hours. That sounded like a lot of ships...until one reflected that a single missile salvo from a force composed solely of cruisers and battlecruisers had completely destroyed twenty-three units of the same class in the Battle of Spindle.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:55 am

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Joat42 wrote:
ART, chapter 7, excerpt wrote:The ceiling on any simultaneous mass transit of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction was around two hundred million tons. That meant the largest force the SLN could throw through the Beowulf Terminus in a single wave would be about thirty of its Scientist-class superdreadnoughts, after which the terminus would be destabilized and useless for over seventeen hours. That sounded like a lot of ships...until one reflected that a single missile salvo from a force composed solely of cruisers and battlecruisers had completely destroyed twenty-three units of the same class in the Battle of Spindle.


And after the first transit of ships is destroyed the forts never have to fire another shot. The next group through enters the debris field and takes itself out of existence with no wedge or bow walls to peotect them from impacts.

We saw that in another transit where ships crashed into othrs and the tugs had to clear the wreckage to avoid worse.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:03 am

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pappilon wrote:
Joat42 wrote:]The ceiling on any simultaneous mass transit of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction was around two hundred million tons. That meant the largest force the SLN could throw through the Beowulf Terminus in a single wave would be about thirty of its Scientist-class superdreadnoughts, after which the terminus would be destabilized and useless for over seventeen hours. That sounded like a lot of ships...until one reflected that a single missile salvo from a force composed solely of cruisers and battlecruisers had completely destroyed twenty-three units of the same class in the Battle of Spindle.


And after the first transit of ships is destroyed the forts never have to fire another shot. The next group through enters the debris field and takes itself out of existence with no wedge or bow walls to peotect them from impacts.

We saw that in another transit where ships crashed into othrs and the tugs had to clear the wreckage to avoid worse.[/quote]

But let us note that some people have to justify the actions of the Sollies...no matter what.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:55 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
One by one would be tough since they would start getting hit right from the beginning. A couple might get in before a surrender took place but if there were a battle, each new ship would present a really nice target.

No question you'd lose a lot of ships. And against the defenses of the Manticoran Junctions no assault down a single lane has any likelihood of success.[1]

But against a lesser defense the steady stream is probably your best bet. Though if the defenses are held back at missile range sending micro-mass transits of destroyers might be a better way to start. You can send sixty or so DDs for the mass of 1 Scientist-class SD and while far more fragile per platform that puts a lot more PDCLs through at once to erode laserhead missile attack.
So make your first 2 or 3 transits DD swarms then start pumping SDs through as fast as you can. Hopefully it takes more than a minute to kill all the DDs so that they can provide anti-missile cover for the following SDs, and then once the DDs reach the end of the grav eddy they can bring their CMs into play and improve the defensive cover for follow on SDs (not to mention bringing their wedge and sidewalls into play; making them more survivable).

Then hopefully it takes longer to kill each new SD than the transit interval so your firepower in the target system slowly climbs. Each platform you have over their increases the chances of killing the incoming laserheads so your rate of loss should also drop. And each unit that survives clear of the grav eddy can start using its own missiles to fire back and the defenses and hopefully erode their offensive power.

Though as noted you may also be losing ships to debris; though coming through at 70 second intervals gives a bit more time for them to move - or for tractors to move them, than the DDs single stream White Haven did - where they were coming through at, IIRC, 10 second intervals.


But a wormhole assault would still be a wonderful way to lose an entire fleet in a morning. You'd take many times more losses than if you used that exact same fleet to attack the defenses after traveling to the system through hyper.

[1] Remember the lockouts are per termini pair, so if you had access you could send 17 ships through from each terminus
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:31 am

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Given that the gravitational stress will tear into very tiny bits any ships without a sail, I’m really not sure how you get the junction clogged with debris. Everything should be turned into plasma as the shredded ships reactors all explode.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:55 pm

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This opens up an interesting question, as the attacker of a guarded, but not fortified wormhole (as San Martin's was). Of course you have the option to send ships sequentially or as a clump...

but if clumped, would you lead with DNs or small SDs to have more platforms, knowing that only so many platforms may be targeted at once, or would you use more heavy SDs knowing that they could absorb more hits per ship?

Both answers lock down the wormhole for 17 hours, and probably endanger the entire force.

but which would you use?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:26 pm

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Theemile wrote:This opens up an interesting question, as the attacker of a guarded, but not fortified wormhole (as San Martin's was). Of course you have the option to send ships sequentially or as a clump...

but if clumped, would you lead with DNs or small SDs to have more platforms, knowing that only so many platforms may be targeted at once, or would you use more heavy SDs knowing that they could absorb more hits per ship?

Both answers lock down the wormhole for 17 hours, and probably endanger the entire force.

but which would you use?
If I had to I'm still leaning to the approach of clumps of lighter warships.

You can put through 60 or so DD for each small SD or 14-20 CAs. It'll probably take longer to kill all the more numerous lighter units just from sheer numbers (not to mention mounting lots more cumulative point defense). Plus they can accelerate down the exit's grav eddy faster, giving a better shot for a few of them to survive to reach the spot they can switch to wedges, bring up sidewalls, and begin using CMs, missiles, decoys, etc.
And with those numbers your only looking at locking down the wormhole for 70ish seconds a transit - so you can pump a lot of attrition units through reasonably quickly.

(And you can always start sending through heavier units once you think the small fry are distracting the enemy and providing defensive cover)



Though if you really want a max transit it looks like you cound fit 1,080 Rolands into the mass ceiling of each bridge of the Junction. :D
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