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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:08 pm

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Vince wrote:As you point out, it is energy density that matters, not total energy. Thunderstorms release more energy than nuclear weapons, but they do so over a much larger period of time, lowering the density. Someone ran some numbers on the energy released by both: How does the energy of a thunderstorm compare with a nuclear bomb? And that's just with a typical or exceptionally large thunderstorm, hurricanes/typhoons/tropical cyclones release much more energy.

As for impacts, the Earth* gets hit by a meteor impact about once a year that equals the amount of energy of the Hiroshima bomb. The Tunguska event energy was equal to that of a hydrogen bomb: Meteor and asteroid impacts.

* Actually the atmosphere--most of the meteors burn up too high to have surface impact effects.


Energy density in time matters. The thunderstorm spreads it's energy over enough time that you don't get a mushroom cloud at all, let alone into the stratosphere.

However, a meteor that spreads it over 10,000 square feet vs a nuke that's spread over maybe 10 square feet isn't going to matter.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:49 am

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I seriously doubt whether something would cause a nuclear winter except for the size that would leave behind its telltale mark of the Grand Canyon, or enough relatively simultaneous missile or KEW strikes, which would probably have to number in the thousands.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Vince   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:40 pm

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cthia wrote:I seriously doubt whether something would cause a nuclear winter except for the size that would leave behind its telltale mark of the Grand Canyon, or enough relatively simultaneous missile or KEW strikes, which would probably have to number in the thousands.

Effects of Krakatoa eruption of August 27, 1883 on Earth's climate, from the 1883 eruption of Krakatoa (Wikipedia):

In the year following the 1883 Krakatoa eruption, average Northern Hemisphere summer temperatures fell by as much as 1.2 °C (2.2 °F).[11] Weather patterns continued to be chaotic for years, and temperatures did not return to normal until 1888.[11] The record rainfall that hit Southern California during the “water year” from July 1883 to June 1884 – Los Angeles received 38.18 inches (969.8 mm) and San Diego 25.97 inches (659.6 mm)[12] – has been attributed to the Krakatoa eruption.[13] There was no El Niño during that period as is normal when heavy rain occurs in Southern California,[14] but many scientists doubt that there is a causal relationship.[15]

The Krakatoa eruption injected an unusually large amount of sulfur dioxide (SO2) gas high into the stratosphere, which was subsequently transported by high-level winds all over the planet. This led to a global increase in sulfuric acid (H2SO4) concentration in high-level cirrus clouds. The resulting increase in cloud reflectivity (or albedo) reflected more incoming light from the sun than usual, and cooled the entire planet until the suspended sulfur fell to the ground as acid precipitation.[16]


Earth has had many other incidents that have been worse in terms of climate effects. While large volcanic eruptions leave an easily observed mark across wide areas in the geological record of the planet*, large meteorite impacts are localized in terms of easy observations in the geological record, but can be global in terms of how they affect climate.**

Examples:
* Yellowstone Caldera.
** Chicxulub crater.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:55 pm

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A anti-planet Honorverse weapon could easily rack up that sort of damage though. A kilogram at .2c is 400kilo Tons of TNT if I mathed right. At a speed of .2c the collisions with stray atoms isn't energetic enough to be easily detected by Honorverse tech. A metric ton goes to 400 megatons. I think that's a double Krakatoa.

Now take the graser torps that the Malign used and replace the graser with a cannon that fires several single ton KEWs. Use the KEW wedge to block as much air as possible. (A spiral pattern lets you maintain forward velocity while using the wedge as a shield.)
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:07 pm

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cthia wrote:I seriously doubt whether something would cause a nuclear winter except for the size that would leave behind its telltale mark of the Grand Canyon, or enough relatively simultaneous missile or KEW strikes, which would probably have to number in the thousands.


It would leave quite a mark. However, given the energy of current missiles it's trivially easy to get that sort of energy.

An MDM at burnout carries about 10% of the energy of the dinosaur killer.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:38 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
cthia wrote:I seriously doubt whether something would cause a nuclear winter except for the size that would leave behind its telltale mark of the Grand Canyon, or enough relatively simultaneous missile or KEW strikes, which would probably have to number in the thousands.


It would leave quite a mark. However, given the energy of current missiles it's trivially easy to get that sort of energy.

An MDM at burnout carries about 10% of the energy of the dinosaur killer.


Then there is little wonder of the need for an edict enforcing the prevention of such horrors. It also lends credence to the premise of this thread, that the MAlign rewrites the book on EEV with their unbridled technology to deliver precision strikes killing military targets only and leaving the infrastructure and ecosystem intact.

Unfettered, using destructive Honorverse weapons, I really cannot see why entire planets wouldn't be rendered uninhabitable. Unless.

Laying dormant in my head somewhere there is a notion that considers, given the capability of Honorverse technology, that any planet in the galaxy can be terraformed given time. I am surprised that Grayson, especially now with the assistance of Manticore and its technology hasn't gone through a massive cleansing and filtering of the planet making it the paradise that it appears to be to the naked eye. Or at least habitable without biodomes.

Along those lines, if Manticore is devastated with such an attack, why can't the planet and the ecosphere be repaired? Decades of reparable terraforming shouldn't be a problem to a species whose life expectancy is as great as it is in the Honorverse. An inconvenience, yes. But surely not a problem.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:56 am

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Related to the notion of these intense Kew strikes and their level of destruction, I really cannot see a planet's population resisting relocation when planetary evacuation of surviving citizens would be a piece of cake; relocating to where sister systems are still pristine, minus the horrors of such an attack. It is a real possibility that the evacuation of an entire surviving population of a planet would/could become a reality in the Honorverse.

This leads to the notion of whether an entire planet could play host to the number of immigrants that that would entail. Could Sphinx absorb the influx of people from Manticore without straining it on various levels?


An aside: Snow snow snow. O where do we go. O beautiful snow. Kids are happy here on the East coast. But they are going to pay dearly at the semester's end.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:25 pm

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cthia wrote:Related to the notion of these intense Kew strikes and their level of destruction, I really cannot see a planet's population resisting relocation when planetary evacuation of surviving citizens would be a piece of cake; relocating to where sister systems are still pristine, minus the horrors of such an attack. It is a real possibility that the evacuation of an entire surviving population of a planet would/could become a reality in the Honorverse.

This leads to the notion of whether an entire planet could play host to the number of immigrants that that would entail. Could Sphinx absorb the influx of people from Manticore without straining it on various levels?


An aside: Snow snow snow. O where do we go. O beautiful snow. Kids are happy here on the East coast. But they are going to pay dearly at the semester's end.


Let us hope that doesn't happen.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:48 pm

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I don't think you can compleatly terraform Grayson to the point where people are going to be living in the open air and swimming in it's waters. It has a monsterously high concentration of heavy metals and fair amount of radioactivity plus other contaminants everywhere. This is not just things like fallout from nuclear weapons with radiation half-lives of 10 to 100+ years. This is everything from lead to chromium to uranium (it doesn't have be the heavily radiaoctive isotopes to kill you, just the material itself being ingested or absorbed.

The Graysons have essentially do deep clensing of anyplace they want to make a Stedding or other habitation and, having excavated what they have to, sealed the bottom and sides to keep anything from getting through. Then they have to detoxify ALL of the soil and materials that they use insde these habitats and filter the air and water that is brough in from the outside for consumption. They also appear to be doing massive recycling of air and water plus any waste -organi or inorganic- such that they can re-use materials that have previously been decomtaminated.
That's why the orbital farms. It is apparently much easier to start out building in orbit with materials that don't have to be decomtaminated (just mined, refined and manufactured) There is also sigificantly less risk of contaminants comming into those farms from outside than any place planetside.

The planet is always going to be a place that is hostile to human (and a lot of other) life, you can't clean enough of it to make it safe.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:33 am

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Brigade XO wrote:I don't think you can compleatly terraform Grayson to the point where people are going to be living in the open air and swimming in it's waters. It has a monsterously high concentration of heavy metals and fair amount of radioactivity plus other contaminants everywhere. This is not just things like fallout from nuclear weapons with radiation half-lives of 10 to 100+ years. This is everything from lead to chromium to uranium (it doesn't have be the heavily radiaoctive isotopes to kill you, just the material itself being ingested or absorbed.

The Graysons have essentially do deep clensing of anyplace they want to make a Stedding or other habitation and, having excavated what they have to, sealed the bottom and sides to keep anything from getting through. Then they have to detoxify ALL of the soil and materials that they use insde these habitats and filter the air and water that is brough in from the outside for consumption. They also appear to be doing massive recycling of air and water plus any waste -organi or inorganic- such that they can re-use materials that have previously been decomtaminated.
That's why the orbital farms. It is apparently much easier to start out building in orbit with materials that don't have to be decomtaminated (just mined, refined and manufactured) There is also sigificantly less risk of contaminants comming into those farms from outside than any place planetside.

The planet is always going to be a place that is hostile to human (and a lot of other) life, you can't clean enough of it to make it safe.


Indeed Brigade. I can't argue with your point. For the record though, I was really more like considering the kind of herculean type of terraforming—though the Martians despise the term terraform—that happened in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy. Mars is just as deadly as Grayson. More so. Yet the Martians manage to turn it into a completely Earthlike environment, without the use of handwavium with tools pretty much available to us now.

In fact, this epic series is considered to be the "cats meow" of terraforming and has become the meter stick and blueprint for any possible future efforts. It is one of my favorite series. A must read.

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Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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