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SL Diplomacy

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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:26 am

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phillies wrote:Of course, the SL has not had a lot of practice with diplomacy beyond the obey or die approach, but they could *try*.

For example, diplomatic missions to Haven and Andermann, making generous offers to each if Haven or Andermann will agree to be neutral.

An offer to Manticore ("the barbarians are crazy but we could try being nice") claiming that the large attack was a private scheme by Rajampet, not authorized, and alas he committed suicide out of shame when he realized what an evil thing he did, and by the way we will pay reparations for all the things he blew up). Oh, yes, and we will forma commission to investigate your claims of an interstellar conspiracy.


Let us remember that Eloise now has a treecat on her shoulder. And Haven is in some ways stronger than Manticore. And she knows that Haven was the primary target of the League.

She is not stupid. It makes far more sense for her to stay with Manticore. She has come to trust them. Why play games?

As for the Andermanni, they would do best as "honest broker." They might be the ones to eventually help settle things...although chances are it will be temporary.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:59 am

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In addition, formal diplomacy would most likely involve engaging formal appendages of the League outside of the influence of the Mandarins. E.g., the DSS (Department of Diplomatic Security) is the corresponding appendage here in the US -- making it a virtual impossibility for the League to keep a lid on it. And if it is widely publicized, and it will be, most of the dirty laundry has potential to be aired in public. Remember Reginald Houseman, a civilian, being tapped for the diplomatic effort to Grayson?

I surely can't see Eloise wanting to keep it out of the media or willing to trust a League who wishes to conceal such an "altruistic" mission from general public consumption. Diplomacy irons out past issues and grievances. The general Solarian in the street is completely oblivious to anything important that has materialized in the Haven sector. And the Mandarins can't afford that fact to change.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by rdelorme   » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:37 am

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Actually, diplomacy would probably work; if the League really wanted peace. Manticore and Haven would demand major changes to the Frontier / protectorate system. Reformers in the League could agree to this; but the current managers would be facing ruin and regime change. Thus it is the internal politics of the League not Manticore and Haven blocking peace.

As for Manticore and Haven smashing the League; this they can do: BUT they do not have the resources to destroy / conquer / occupy the League. Thus in the long run Manticore can not win a total war scenario: that is stated in the books several time. Their only hope is revolution in the League; which will result in some break a way regions, but lets be honest most of the core systems will remain. Thus in the long run the GA must make a diplomatic settlement; just as Manticore did with Haven.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Theemile   » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:29 pm

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Rednek731 wrote:This conversation makes me wonder... what are the chances that the SL will try to "convince" other nations to back them up? This is of course ignoring how unlikely that is to succeed, but still they could be desperate enough to try.


What other nations? This is the #1 sized star nation, facing off against #2, #3, #4, #5, and #8. IN real world terms, it is the US against the EU, Britain, Russia, China, Japan, India and Isreal. The US doesn't need Sudan's support if it feels like taking the other major players on. Everything they say or do is merely window dressing to make them feel good and an attempt cower anyone else not involved.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Theemile   » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:34 pm

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rdelorme wrote:Actually, diplomacy would probably work; if the League really wanted peace. Manticore and Haven would demand major changes to the Frontier / protectorate system. Reformers in the League could agree to this; but the current managers would be facing ruin and regime change. Thus it is the internal politics of the League not Manticore and Haven blocking peace.

As for Manticore and Haven smashing the League; this they can do: BUT they do not have the resources to destroy / conquer / occupy the League. Thus in the long run Manticore can not win a total war scenario: that is stated in the books several time. Their only hope is revolution in the League; which will result in some break a way regions, but lets be honest most of the core systems will remain. Thus in the long run the GA must make a diplomatic settlement; just as Manticore did with Haven.


The problem is, diplomacy will not work without the Mandarins publically admitting that they screwed up by the numbers. Unless they admit the SL was a fault in the early instance AND the Mandarins admit sent the assault fleet to Manticore unlawfully, Manticore is not going to back down. But If the Mandarins do that - their heads will roll. And the last thing the Mandarins want is to lose their jobs.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by filbert   » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:47 pm

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Solarian League diplomacy is a muscle which has not seen much exercise in the past few centuries.

Solarian League diplomacy in the Verge has (with the notable exception of Manticore) had the aspect of simply listening to systems meekly saying "How high?" when SL diplomats have told them to jump. The main diplomatic arm of the SL beyond the "borders" of the League has been the Office of Frontier Security, actually.

In fact, I would guess that SL diplomacy other than OFS seems to have been (IMHO) almost exclusively focused on internal, domestic matters, and relations with the transtellar companies, to the near-total exclusion of anyone outside the SL.

There is not, for instance, anything like a Solarian League embassy in Manticore, Noveau Paris, or Potsdam, as far as we know.

This goes back to the question of the fundamental nature of the Solarian League. It isn't actually a fully-functioning national government as we real-life Earthlings would recognize it. It has aspects of a government, but in my mind it's really more like a future version of the medieval Hanseatic League . . . a trade association with a navy, with a exploitative colonial organization grafted onto it (a main difference from the Hansa).
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:30 pm

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filbert wrote:Solarian League diplomacy is a muscle which has not seen much exercise in the past few centuries.

Solarian League diplomacy in the Verge has (with the notable exception of Manticore) had the aspect of simply listening to systems meekly saying "How high?" when SL diplomats have told them to jump. The main diplomatic arm of the SL beyond the "borders" of the League has been the Office of Frontier Security, actually.

In fact, I would guess that SL diplomacy other than OFS seems to have been (IMHO) almost exclusively focused on internal, domestic matters, and relations with the transtellar companies, to the near-total exclusion of anyone outside the SL.

There is not, for instance, anything like a Solarian League embassy in Manticore, Noveau Paris, or Potsdam, as far as we know.

This goes back to the question of the fundamental nature of the Solarian League. It isn't actually a fully-functioning national government as we real-life Earthlings would recognize it. It has aspects of a government, but in my mind it's really more like a future version of the medieval Hanseatic League . . . a trade association with a navy, with a exploitative colonial organization grafted onto it (a main difference from the Hansa).


A very apt analogy. But it is more like the UN now, had the UN been allowed to build a large army. Of course, its current army, or at least the troops it uses, are known for atrocities. Sort of like the Sollies, I guess.

Notice that there really isn't much of a Foreign Relations Department. People talk to Kolkolsov (probably misspelled the name) but he really run the League. They basically have never needed someone for foreign affairs since they just take over their neighbors.

Notice that by not having embassies in Manticore, Haven, Grayson, and Andermann, they have very little idea what is actually going on. They are interested in impact on their trade but that's about it.

There will not be a real peace...more like an armistice, probably with an agreement to let those planets that want to leave having the right to do so. They will lose a lot of planets and I would guess the mandarins might actually be replaced...by others who will dislike the accords as much as the current leaders but are not directly involved in the disaster.

That way in a couple of decades we can expect to see the next fighting.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Silverwall   » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:22 pm

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To be honest the Solaraian League reminds me a hell of a lot of WW1 Austria Hungry an advanced industrial core with fractious outlying areas. An on paper powerful army that folds at the first clash of arms and a totally incompetant general staff/political system.

In WW1 the Austrian army was completely routed by imperial russia twice in 3 years and only massive german support kept them going in the field, without the germans Tzar Nicholas would have been dictating peace terms in Budapest or maybe even Vienna. Check out the history of Conrad von Hotzendorf and you see the mandarins in real life. This is the man that tried to declare war on Serbia over 20 times prior to WW1 mainly being stopped by Franz Ferdinand in a colossal piece of Irony.

Like Austria once the venier of power is broken there is no real way to put the political unit back together and unlike in WW1 the SL has no ally like germany to bail them out. At best they have 3rd tier powers that may back them.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by n7axw   » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:17 am

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Silverwall wrote:To be honest the Solaraian League reminds me a hell of a lot of WW1 Austria Hungry an advanced industrial core with fractious outlying areas. An on paper powerful army that folds at the first clash of arms and a totally incompetant general staff/political system.

In WW1 the Austrian army was completely routed by imperial russia twice in 3 years and only massive german support kept them going in the field, without the germans Tzar Nicholas would have been dictating peace terms in Budapest or maybe even Vienna. Check out the history of Conrad von Hotzendorf and you see the mandarins in real life. This is the man that tried to declare war on Serbia over 20 times prior to WW1 mainly being stopped by Franz Ferdinand in a colossal piece of Irony.

Like Austria once the venier of power is broken there is no real way to put the political unit back together and unlike in WW1 the SL has no ally like germany to bail them out. At best they have 3rd tier powers that may back them.


Dunno... As to whether the Austrians were more incompetent than pre 1917 Czarists would have been a very near run thing...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SL Diplomacy
Post by Theemile   » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:39 am

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n7axw wrote:
Dunno... As to whether the Austrians were more incompetent than pre 1917 Czarists would have been a very near run thing...

Don

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I found an interesting photo some years back, of a group of young boys, all cousins, vacationing in the late 1800s in the Alps. Three of these youngsters went on to be King or England, Kaiser of Germany, and Tzar of Russia by 1912. All the leaders of the European countries were closely related and knew each other. It's no wonder they were all idiots leading their countries to slaughter.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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