Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:I never thought to put the shoe on the other foot. Should — and would — Beowulf also deny the RMN transit through their termini into League space, in the event they do decide — or are forced — to attack the League?

Weird Harold wrote:Depends. Before or after they secede?

Before secession, they do have a responsibility to oppose invasion of the Solarian League by a hostile power, no matter who it might be. Given the close cooperation and friendship between Beowulf and the SKM, the question is unlikely to arise without at least consideration of secession arising first.

After secession, they are more likely to aid invasion than hinder it. They would have no legal reason to protect the Solarian League after they secede.

munroburton wrote:It's a bit late for that. They already let 60 RMN SD(P)s transit before Filareta arrived. After scaring Tsang away, another 100-150 went through to make it ~200 SD(P)s total parked at Beowulf's terminus.

Beowulf can't stop them now. But the GA are nice guys. They're waiting for Beowulf's secession to finish before using Beowulf as an avenue of attack.

cthia wrote:"Warning! Beware Can-O-Worms! If opened, Weasel pops out!"

A Rising Thunder, Chapter 14 wrote:“I’m afraid there’s been some misunderstanding, Admiral,” the dark-skinned man on Fleet Admiral Imogene Tsang’s display said. “The Beowulf government has clearly stated its opposition to your proposed movement. In fact, we’ve informed both Fleet Admiral Rajampet and Prime Minister Gyulay that the Planetary Board of Directors declines to authorize or permit the transit of Solarian naval vessels through this terminus at this time. If that information wasn’t transmitted to you prior to your departure for Beowulf, I’m officially informing you of it now.”
“I’m not privy to your system government’s communications with the Prime Minister or the Admiralty, Director Caddell-Markham,” Tsang replied in a reasonably courteous but firm tone. “I do, however, have orders to transit this terminus with my task force to support Eleventh Fleet’s operations. Those orders aren’t discretionary, nor are they preconditioned on anyone’s permission or lack of permission. For myself, I’ll simply observe that my understanding of the Constitution is that federal authority is paramount in circumstances such as these. I’ll also concede that I may be mistaken in that understanding, and if I am, I sincerely apologize for anything which may seem to overstep my authority. Nonetheless, I remain bound by the orders I’ve received from my lawful superiors.”
“I suggest you consider that very carefully, Admiral.” Gabriel Caddell-Markham’s voice was considerably colder than Tsang’s had been. “The confrontation between the League and the Star Empire has the potential to become the most disastrous collision in human history. It’s the belief of the Beowulf government that the situation is being manipulated by forces inimical to both the League and the Star Empire and that we would be derelict in our duty—and our responsibility to the human race in general, not simply to the citizens of the Beowulf System—if we contributed to that disaster. We have no intention of doing so, and with all due deference to your understanding of the Constitution, it’s our opinion that the federal government grossly overstepped its power by issuing your orders. There’s been no declaration of war, and Article Five of the Constitution specifically denies the federal government authority to dictate to system governments in time of peace. As a consequence, the Beowulf System’s government is under no requirement to assist you in this movement, and our personnel and citizens will not assist you.
“The Beowulf Terminus is administered and controlled by the Beowulf Terminus Corporation, a civilian corporation based in Beowulf, but the Terminus’ actual sovereignty rests with Manticore, as its discoverer. Whether or not we would have the legal authority to allow you passage against Manticore’s will, even if we wished to, is a question complex enough to keep battalions of lawyers busy for decades. But the bottom line is that neither we nor the BTC have any desire to assist you in this madness to begin with and that virtually all the personnel manning the traffic-control platforms on the terminus are Beowulfan citizens. Solarian citizens—civilians—over whom the Solarian military has no jurisdiction in time of peace. For that matter, the Solarian military has no jurisdiction over Solarian civilians even in time of war unless a legitimate declaration of martial law has first been issued. None has. Since that’s the case, the Beowulf System Defense Force would be morally, legally, and constitutionally justified in protecting our citizens against illegal coercion by whatever means may be necessary. And in case I haven’t been sufficiently clear, ‘whatever means may be necessary’ does include the use of deadly force.”
“Mr. Director, are you actually threatening to fire on the Solarian League Navy?” Tsang demanded, brown eyes widening.
“I’m telling you as an official representative of the Beowulf Planetary Board of Directors that we will not assist you in making transit, that BTC’s astro-control personnel will refuse your orders to do so, and that should you attempt to unlawfully coerce them into doing so, we will resist. If you persist despite that warning—if shots are fired and blood is spilled—it will be a consequence of the unconstitutional actions of the federal government, and Beowulf will not be responsible for the potential consequences for the League’s stability which will undoubtedly follow. I don’t know how I can be any clearer than that. And since I’ve been as clear as I know how to be, I see no point in continuing this conversation. Good day, Admiral.”

cthia wrote:Should — and would — Beowulf also deny the RMN transit through their termini into League space, in the event they do decide — or are forced — to attack the League?

A Rising Thunder, Chapter 1 wrote:“Commodore Chalker,” he said in a hard, flat voice quite different from the courteous one he’d employed so far, “allow me to point out two things to you. First, this terminus is, in fact, not in Nolan’s territorial space. Unless my astrogation is badly off, it’s five light-hours from Nolan, which puts it just a bit outside the twelve-minute limit. The Solarian League’s claim to its possession rests solely on the SLN’s supposed power to control the space about it. And, second, in regard to that supposed power, I respectfully suggest you consider the actual balance of force which obtains at this moment. Based on that balance, I submit that it would be unwise to issue such threats against Manticoran shipping . . . and even less wise to carry them out.”

Vince wrote:

cthia wrote:I never thought to put the shoe on the other foot. Should — and would — Beowulf also deny the RMN transit through their termini into League space, in the event they do decide — or are forced — to attack the League?

Weird Harold wrote:Depends. Before or after they secede?

Before secession, they do have a responsibility to oppose invasion of the Solarian League by a hostile power, no matter who it might be. Given the close cooperation and friendship between Beowulf and the SKM, the question is unlikely to arise without at least consideration of secession arising first.

After secession, they are more likely to aid invasion than hinder it. They would have no legal reason to protect the Solarian League after they secede.

munroburton wrote:It's a bit late for that. They already let 60 RMN SD(P)s transit before Filareta arrived. After scaring Tsang away, another 100-150 went through to make it ~200 SD(P)s total parked at Beowulf's terminus.

Beowulf can't stop them now. But the GA are nice guys. They're waiting for Beowulf's secession to finish before using Beowulf as an avenue of attack.

cthia wrote:"Warning! Beware Can-O-Worms! If opened, Weasel pops out!"

The Beowulf Terminus of the Manticore Wormhole Junction is NOT in Solarian League space. Or even in Beowulf space:

A Rising Thunder, Chapter 14 wrote:“I’m afraid there’s been some misunderstanding, Admiral,” the dark-skinned man on Fleet Admiral Imogene Tsang’s display said. “The Beowulf government has clearly stated its opposition to your proposed movement. In fact, we’ve informed both Fleet Admiral Rajampet and Prime Minister Gyulay that the Planetary Board of Directors declines to authorize or permit the transit of Solarian naval vessels through this terminus at this time. If that information wasn’t transmitted to you prior to your departure for Beowulf, I’m officially informing you of it now.”
“I’m not privy to your system government’s communications with the Prime Minister or the Admiralty, Director Caddell-Markham,” Tsang replied in a reasonably courteous but firm tone. “I do, however, have orders to transit this terminus with my task force to support Eleventh Fleet’s operations. Those orders aren’t discretionary, nor are they preconditioned on anyone’s permission or lack of permission. For myself, I’ll simply observe that my understanding of the Constitution is that federal authority is paramount in circumstances such as these. I’ll also concede that I may be mistaken in that understanding, and if I am, I sincerely apologize for anything which may seem to overstep my authority. Nonetheless, I remain bound by the orders I’ve received from my lawful superiors.”
“I suggest you consider that very carefully, Admiral.” Gabriel Caddell-Markham’s voice was considerably colder than Tsang’s had been. “The confrontation between the League and the Star Empire has the potential to become the most disastrous collision in human history. It’s the belief of the Beowulf government that the situation is being manipulated by forces inimical to both the League and the Star Empire and that we would be derelict in our duty—and our responsibility to the human race in general, not simply to the citizens of the Beowulf System—if we contributed to that disaster. We have no intention of doing so, and with all due deference to your understanding of the Constitution, it’s our opinion that the federal government grossly overstepped its power by issuing your orders. There’s been no declaration of war, and Article Five of the Constitution specifically denies the federal government authority to dictate to system governments in time of peace. As a consequence, the Beowulf System’s government is under no requirement to assist you in this movement, and our personnel and citizens will not assist you.
“The Beowulf Terminus is administered and controlled by the Beowulf Terminus Corporation, a civilian corporation based in Beowulf, but the Terminus’ actual sovereignty rests with Manticore, as its discoverer. Whether or not we would have the legal authority to allow you passage against Manticore’s will, even if we wished to, is a question complex enough to keep battalions of lawyers busy for decades. But the bottom line is that neither we nor the BTC have any desire to assist you in this madness to begin with and that virtually all the personnel manning the traffic-control platforms on the terminus are Beowulfan citizens. Solarian citizens—civilians—over whom the Solarian military has no jurisdiction in time of peace. For that matter, the Solarian military has no jurisdiction over Solarian civilians even in time of war unless a legitimate declaration of martial law has first been issued. None has. Since that’s the case, the Beowulf System Defense Force would be morally, legally, and constitutionally justified in protecting our citizens against illegal coercion by whatever means may be necessary. And in case I haven’t been sufficiently clear, ‘whatever means may be necessary’ does include the use of deadly force.”
“Mr. Director, are you actually threatening to fire on the Solarian League Navy?” Tsang demanded, brown eyes widening.
“I’m telling you as an official representative of the Beowulf Planetary Board of Directors that we will not assist you in making transit, that BTC’s astro-control personnel will refuse your orders to do so, and that should you attempt to unlawfully coerce them into doing so, we will resist. If you persist despite that warning—if shots are fired and blood is spilled—it will be a consequence of the unconstitutional actions of the federal government, and Beowulf will not be responsible for the potential consequences for the League’s stability which will undoubtedly follow. I don’t know how I can be any clearer than that. And since I’ve been as clear as I know how to be, I see no point in continuing this conversation. Good day, Admiral.”

Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

So the question of whether:

cthia wrote:Should — and would — Beowulf also deny the RMN transit through their termini into League space, in the event they do decide — or are forced — to attack the League?

is completely moot as a legal point. And even if you view the question on other legal grounds, both Manticore and the Solarian League recognize the idea of 'might makes right' or 'history (or in this case, law) is written by the victors'.

RMN Commander Pang Yau-pau to SLN Commodore Jeremy Chalker at the Nolan Terminus of the Nolan-Katharina Hyper Bridge (Nolan is a protectorate of the Solarian League):

A Rising Thunder, Chapter 1 wrote:“Commodore Chalker,” he said in a hard, flat voice quite different from the courteous one he’d employed so far, “allow me to point out two things to you. First, this terminus is, in fact, not in Nolan’s territorial space. Unless my astrogation is badly off, it’s five light-hours from Nolan, which puts it just a bit outside the twelve-minute limit. The Solarian League’s claim to its possession rests solely on the SLN’s supposed power to control the space about it. And, second, in regard to that supposed power, I respectfully suggest you consider the actual balance of force which obtains at this moment. Based on that balance, I submit that it would be unwise to issue such threats against Manticoran shipping . . . and even less wise to carry them out.”

Boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

“Exactly.” Kolokoltsov tipped back in his chair. “I think we need to get Kingsford in here, let him take a look at any military options we may have—workable military options, I mean—where Beowulf is concerned.

-snip-

At this point what we need to do is to make it over the security threat to the League Beowulf represents because of its association with the League’s avowed enemies. As Omosupe said, everybody knows about Beowulf’s effective proximity to Manticore. That means everybody knows Beowulf does, indeed, represent that ‘invasion highway’ Nathan was talking about. We’d be fully justified in taking military action against any star nation that was in a position to enable a Manty invasion of the very heart of the Solarian League. I don’t think they’d be remotely stupid enough to do it, you understand, but we can make an ironclad case for taking action to deprive them of the capability to do it. But making certain that they can’t would be a simple matter of self-defense, and one we’d have no choice but to pursue. We’d be derelict in our responsibilities to the rest of the League if we didn’t!”

“Which lets us hammer Beowulf as hard as we want—assuming we can find a way to do it, that is—without ever even touching the question of secession!” Abruzzi said enthusiastically.

“Exactly,” Kolokoltsov repeated. “And, Nathan, there’s no way anyone out in the Shell who might be thinking in terms of seceding is going to miss the subtext. There won’t be a single official word about secession in anything we have to say on the subject, but everyone will hear it anyway.”

“And once the immediate furor dies down, Reid and Neng’s committee reports back that Beowulf’s actions were treasonous before it seceded,”

-snip-

cthia wrote:<snip>

The League absolutely cannot learn that Beowulf's systems have been upgraded. Which is the impetus for my not believing any of Beowulf's ships are contender's for our latest snippet dilemma. They wouldn't be bragging like that. Too soon. As it would all go toward the SLN charge of Beowulf's treason prior to seceding.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:<snip>

The League absolutely cannot learn that Beowulf's systems have been upgraded. Which is the impetus for my not believing any of Beowulf's ships are contender's for our latest snippet dilemma. They wouldn't be bragging like that. Too soon. As it would all go toward the SLN charge of Beowulf's treason prior to seceding.

We have word from David that Beowulf isn’t running upgraded systems in their ships. As much as we’d like, they are not running software limiters, with the “Manty Mode” switch up in the corner to unleash Manty goodness. The only Manty tech they used in front of the SLN was the Hermes Buoy, with is the equivalent to the Manties on the scene loaning the Beowulf commander their cellphone. David ended that message with my new sig below.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:<snip>

The League absolutely cannot learn that Beowulf's systems have been upgraded. Which is the impetus for my not believing any of Beowulf's ships are contender's for our latest snippet dilemma. They wouldn't be bragging like that. Too soon. As it would all go toward the SLN charge of Beowulf's treason prior to seceding.

We have word from David that Beowulf isn’t running upgraded systems in their ships. As much as we’d like, they are not running software limiters, with the “Manty Mode” switch up in the corner to unleash Manty goodness. The only Manty tech they used in front of the SLN was the Hermes Buoy, with is the equivalent to the Manties on the scene loaning the Beowulf commander their cellphone. David ended that message with my new sig below.

cthia wrote:OTOH, they were advanced tech platforms that Beowulf allowed the League's enemy to deploy in Beowulf space that could have resulted in the destruction of SLN ships and personnel.

Or were they held just out of Bewowulfan territory?

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:OTOH, they were advanced tech platforms that Beowulf allowed the League's enemy to deploy in Beowulf space that could have resulted in the destruction of SLN ships and personnel.

Or were they held just out of Bewowulfan territory?

I believe the entire confrontation near the terminus was out well beyond Beowulf's sovereign 12 light hours (6 LH radius) limit (which Davis days is somewhat analogous to today's oceanic Exclusive Economic Zones). ART tells use that Fleet Admiral Tsang held her forces 10 million km clear of the terminus. I'm not sure how far the Manticoran territorial space around the terminus stretches but that's only 33 light seconds clear; so they might actually be in Manticoran space. But if not they seem to be out in 'international' space. (Though I'm not quickly finding the actual distance between Beowulf's primary and the terminus; but most of them are beyond 6 light hours)

So I don't believe the Hermes buoy would have been inside Beowulfan territorial space.

[True False]

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