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What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn effort?

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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:53 am

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Dilandu wrote:Basically this idea was suggested (by me :) ) - that the Von Neimann-type probes, crewed by PICA's could be cheaper and more effective solution. Considering the personality copying/stroing technology, even the total evacuation of human race - in terms of stored personalities and DNA sequence - onboard such ship could be realistic.

RFC basically stated, that they haven't got enough time. If Federation have more time, they would launch another colonization efforts - maybe even "mankind evacuation scenario", described above. But they have time to launch only the Safehold fleet from Solar System. So, they basically decided to stuck with old-fashioned, but less technically risky solution.

P.S. It is possible, that other Federation colonies made attempts to launch their own colonization fleets, before they have been destroyed. Also it is possible that there were some individual efforts (custom-build high-stealth ships with PICA crews, designed to wait in depowered mode until Gbaba's gone, and then crawl away).


The point of the Safehold colony was the survival of the human race. What would be the point of an all PICA/VR crew? A PICA/VR crew would only ensure the survival of personalities, there would be no living humans. The only benefit I could see would be to sneak off, build a war making machine to attack and destroy the Gbaba to prevent the extermination of other intelligent races.
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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:39 am

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Keith_w wrote:
The point of the Safehold colony was the survival of the human race. What would be the point of an all PICA/VR crew? A PICA/VR crew would only ensure the survival of personalities, there would be no living humans. The only benefit I could see would be to sneak off, build a war making machine to attack and destroy the Gbaba to prevent the extermination of other intelligent races.


If you describe "human" as only biological body - yes. But biological body is only an attachment to human personality. Only the personality is important (or you would declare that human with artifical arm or leg would became "less human"?)
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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by evilauthor   » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:30 am

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Keith_w wrote:The point of the Safehold colony was the survival of the human race. What would be the point of an all PICA/VR crew? A PICA/VR crew would only ensure the survival of personalities, there would be no living humans.


For some people, that might be good enough. If you can't preserve biological humanity, then preserving human culture in the form of uploaded ghosts would be a good second prize.

The only benefit I could see would be to sneak off, build a war making machine to attack and destroy the Gbaba to prevent the extermination of other intelligent races.


And for some people, this alone would be a good enough reason to create Von Neumann colonies. If they can't preserve humanity, AVENGING humanity (and incidentally protecting other species) will do just fine.

Of course, others will point out that without actual human culture to restrain such a colony, a Von Neumann army can easily become a new Gbaba that mindlessly attacks new species because they don't distinguish between them and the race they were originally made to fight.

Which would be a cool plot twist. Safehold goes into space ready to fight the Gbaba... only to have to fight another Federation offshoot that wiped out the Gbaba and is wiping out other species because they "might be" Gbaba.
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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:39 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Keith_w wrote:
The point of the Safehold colony was the survival of the human race. What would be the point of an all PICA/VR crew? A PICA/VR crew would only ensure the survival of personalities, there would be no living humans. The only benefit I could see would be to sneak off, build a war making machine to attack and destroy the Gbaba to prevent the extermination of other intelligent races.


If you describe "human" as only biological body - yes. But biological body is only an attachment to human personality. Only the personality is important (or you would declare that human with artifical arm or leg would became "less human"?)


No, I would describe human as a personality within a biological body. That a person requires an artificial limb does not reduce their humanity. And yes, I am effectively arguing that Merlin and Nimue are not humans and am surprised that no one else has pointed that out yet.

On the one hand, they are the embodiment of Nimue Albans personality and have grown in different directions from each other and probably from how she would have grown had she not died during the breakout. On the other hand, they have practically indestructible internally powered bodies, super human strength, and are, for all intents and purposes, immortal. Hardly "human".
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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:45 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
Keith_w wrote:The point of the Safehold colony was the survival of the human race. What would be the point of an all PICA/VR crew? A PICA/VR crew would only ensure the survival of personalities, there would be no living humans.


For some people, that might be good enough. If you can't preserve biological humanity, then preserving human culture in the form of uploaded ghosts would be a good second prize.

The only benefit I could see would be to sneak off, build a war making machine to attack and destroy the Gbaba to prevent the extermination of other intelligent races.


And for some people, this alone would be a good enough reason to create Von Neumann colonies. If they can't preserve humanity, AVENGING humanity (and incidentally protecting other species) will do just fine.

Of course, others will point out that without actual human culture to restrain such a colony, a Von Neumann army can easily become a new Gbaba that mindlessly attacks new species because they don't distinguish between them and the race they were originally made to fight.

Which would be a cool plot twist. Safehold goes into space ready to fight the Gbaba... only to have to fight another Federation offshoot that wiped out the Gbaba and is wiping out other species because they "might be" Gbaba.


I can certainly see and possibly even agree with that point. As for the restraint point, that story has been written by Fred Saberhagen in his "Berserker" stories, and the avenging point by Greg Bear in the "Forge of God". Indeed even the recent "Independence Day" movie touched on that theme.
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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:44 pm

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Keith_w wrote:And yes, I am effectively arguing that Merlin and Nimue are not humans and am surprised that no one else has pointed that out yet.


Merlin has.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:07 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Keith_w wrote:And yes, I am effectively arguing that Merlin and Nimue are not humans and am surprised that no one else has pointed that out yet.


Merlin has.


Merlin comments in the forums? What's his forum name? ;)
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A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:17 pm

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Keith_w wrote:No, I would describe human as a personality within a biological body. That a person requires an artificial limb does not reduce their humanity. And yes, I am effectively arguing that Merlin and Nimue are not humans and am surprised that no one else has pointed that out yet.

On the one hand, they are the embodiment of Nimue Albans personality and have grown in different directions from each other and probably from how she would have grown had she not died during the breakout. On the other hand, they have practically indestructible internally powered bodies, super human strength, and are, for all intents and purposes, immortal. Hardly "human".


As far as I'm concerned, human mind = human. PICA body, so what?
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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:56 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Merlin has.


Merlin comments in the forums? What's his forum name? ;)


No he speaks in a much more authoritative form -- Textev.
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.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: What if Safehold wasn't the Federations only forlorn eff
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:49 am

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Keith_w wrote:On the one hand, they are the embodiment of Nimue Albans personality and have grown in different directions from each other and probably from how she would have grown had she not died during the breakout. On the other hand, they have practically indestructible internally powered bodies, super human strength, and are, for all intents and purposes, immortal. Hardly "human".


Ok, we could use partial solution. We could clone the biological body, which brain would be interconnected with micro-CPU, on which the electronic personality would be installed.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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