Guns, Guns Guns

Mad is right, gcomeau. Americans ARE defined by our current constitution. If we change the Constitution sufficiently, we change that definition of ourselves. Even if we retain the name American, we would be different than the Americans that came before.

My point is that too is our right as a society to do.

PeterZ wrote:Mad is right, gcomeau. Americans ARE defined by our current constitution. If we change the Constitution sufficiently, we change that definition of ourselves. Even if we retain the name American, we would be different than the Americans that came before.

My point is that too is our right as a society to do.

In that case, today's citizens of this country are in no sense of the word "Americans" by the standards of the Founders, considering how many times the Constitutions has been amended in the intervening years. And we can just all stop worrying about people losing their identify as Americans since it's already happened. Repeatedly.

We may well be sufficiently different because of those accumulated changes. I would argue that our changes have happened over enough time and enough essential qualities have not changed so that the name American still captures the idea of us as a people both now and then.

gcomeau wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Mad is right, gcomeau. Americans ARE defined by our current constitution. If we change the Constitution sufficiently, we change that definition of ourselves. Even if we retain the name American, we would be different than the Americans that came before.

My point is that too is our right as a society to do.

In that case, today's citizens of this country are in no sense of the word "Americans" by the standards of the Founders, considering how many times the Constitutions has been amended in the intervening years. And we can just all stop worrying about people losing their identify as Americans since it's already happened. Repeatedly.

gcomeau wrote:As I'm reading MAD's tirade, he is outraged

It is neither a "tirade" nor am I "outraged". I am stressing a point, that any change to the "Bill-of-Rights" makes them no longer "Rights" but "Privileges" which can (and will be) taken away. These "Rights" define being an American.

PeterZ wrote:Mad is right, gcomeau. Americans ARE defined by our current constitution. If we change the Constitution sufficiently, we change that definition of ourselves. Even if we retain the name American, we would be different than the Americans that came before.

Exactly

PeterZ wrote:My point is that too is our right as a society to do.

And - as a society we can choose to stop allowing pants and demand everyone go around naked if we choose to, that changes the dynamic of the society & is no longer the same society.

Allright The E, just look to your own present history with the Nazis and see how they usurped the German Republic and the Constitution and laws. This nonsense about the living Constitution is a bunch of balderdash! This reminds me of Bill Clinton trying to change the meaning of "is" when he gave testimony under oath about having sexual relations! If the Constitution is to be changed, America has mechanism for changing it. Is hard to change the Constitution...you bet but not impossible. It's also hard to add or take from the Constitution! When a country allows laws or meanings to fit the desired outcome...the country is no longer a democracy or republic but on the way to something else. Personally, I feel that you so blinded by your desire for utopia for the world that you have forgotten that peace is forged by strength. A gun has never killed another human being. It's the human being pulling the trigger that makes the decision.

My question stands....and?

The bold is tantamount to saying water is wet. Factually true and obvious but to what purpose?

If you wish to argue that discarding items of the Bill of Rights separately or as a whole is a big mistake, I agree. I may not agree with your specific logic but do agree with your overall conclusion. It might even be fun to discuss.

MAD-4A wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Mad is right, gcomeau. Americans ARE defined by our current constitution. If we change the Constitution sufficiently, we change that definition of ourselves. Even if we retain the name American, we would be different than the Americans that came before.

Exactly

PeterZ wrote:My point is that too is our right as a society to do.

And - as a society we can choose to stop allowing pants and demand everyone go around naked if we choose to, that changes the dynamic of the society & is no longer the same society.

MAD-4A wrote:

gcomeau wrote:As I'm reading MAD's tirade, he is outraged

It is neither a "tirade" nor am I "outraged". I am stressing a point, that any change to the "Bill-of-Rights" makes them no longer "Rights" but "Privileges" which can (and will be) taken away. These "Rights" define being an American.

Usually you don't need to resort to 150 point font to "stress a point"... but sure.

And if your claim is true then all those rights never existed before the Bill was passed anyway, if changing the text of the Bill abolishes them as rights.

And you can claim anything you want defines "being an American", doesn't make it so. I'm quite sure much of the Confederacy thought the whole slavery thing was a big part of being an American. Couldn't care less about their opinion on the matter though. And don't really care if any future changes to the Constitution a large enough majority agree on cause you to up and declare that America no longer exists either. The country will most likely keep running right along whether you declare it dead and buried because it update an obsolete clause or two or not. In fact, the surest path to extinction in the long term?

Failure to evolve.

Ok gcomeau, our constitution has served well over 200 years! Just because you believe that the Constitution of the United States is outdated, does not mean Gcomeau is correct! If you feel the need to change it...Great! Go forth into the lands of the US and legally change it or evolve the US Constitution! The Constitution is meant to stand the test of time! Our forefathers learned from their mistakes...aka Articles of Confederation! However, they left a mechanism in place to change the Constitution! Man is imperfect!

gecomeau post:

And if your claim is true then all those rights never existed before the Bill was passed anyway, if changing the text of the Bill abolishes them as rights. By the way, most mutations fail in nature! Be very careful before amending the Constitution!

And you can claim anything you want defines "being an American", doesn't make it so. I'm quite sure much of the Confederacy thought the whole slavery thing was a big part of being an American. Couldn't care less about their opinion on the matter though. And don't really care if any future changes to the Constitution a large enough majority agree on cause you to up and declare that America no longer exists either. The country will most likely keep running right along whether you declare it dead and buried because it update an obsolete clause or two or not. In fact, the surest path to extinction in the long term?

Failure to evolve.

The assumption that the Constitution NEEDs to change is questionable. Sure the world will change and with it the demands upon society and government. The Constitution provides for that as things stand right now. I believe the term is liberty. We citizens have the liberty to decide what's best for us in that near or not so near future.

We don't need government to change and fix those problems for us. We simply have to use our liberty as sovereign citizens who can and do decide for ourselves those challenges of the future.

Might government be required to be more active? Certainly, it may well. I am not convinced that public solutions to life's problems are the best approach.

gcomeau wrote:Usually you don't need to resort to 150 point font to "stress a point"... but sure.

And if your claim is true then all those rights never existed before the Bill was passed anyway, if changing the text of the Bill abolishes them as rights.

And you can claim anything you want defines "being an American", doesn't make it so. I'm quite sure much of the Confederacy thought the whole slavery thing was a big part of being an American. Couldn't care less about their opinion on the matter though. And don't really care if any future changes to the Constitution a large enough majority agree on cause you to up and declare that America no longer exists either. The country will most likely keep running right along whether you declare it dead and buried because it update an obsolete clause or two or not. In fact, the surest path to extinction in the long term?

Failure to evolve.