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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:06 pm

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cthia wrote:
SWM wrote:Cthia, I think you have missed a few things.

First, way back in Honor of the Queen, we were told that everyone in the galaxy except for Grayson gave up fission centuries ago. Planets use fusion power, not fission power. There is no need to worry about special protection for fission plants.

Second, Mount Royal Palace is already protected by ground-based defenses. They are specifically mentioned as being used during Oyster Bay in Mission of Honor.

Third, planets already have defenses for normal debris, asteroid impacts, and so on. Mission of Honor tells us that the tugs in Manticore orbit are specifically trained to block debris like that with their wedge.

All of the stuff you are asking for is already in the text.

The only reason the debris from Oyster Bay was a problem is because there was no warning. The normal debris defenses didn't have time to get in place.

Yes, I apologize for the redumbdancy. I remembered some of the details of Grayson but I couldn't remember if the universe as a whole primarily used fusion as a power source or just for some other rare esoteric uses. Or just as a supplemental power source.

In the case of the tugs, their use as debris interceptors seemed inadequate and I got the impression, though they had no forewarning, that their uses in intercepting debris was a byproduct or incidental and not a formal plan. Not saying I'm right, just trying to get off the hook for not knowing. :D

Also, I thought the Palace security was much the same, incidental falling debris security that is really intended against terrorist groups, factions etc. already in planetary atmosphere.

I didn't know they were specifically designed for debris.

My humble apology.

The Palace Security system is undoubtedly primarily intended for defense against attacks, as you thought. That does not mean that defense against debris is not part of their design, though. A system designed for the one works for the other. And the system was designed to be brought up with no warning. It is the last-ditch defense of the Queen's home from air-borne danger. Indeed, this was an attack. Ordinary debris would give a lot more warning, and probably not require Palace Security intervention.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:57 pm

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.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:01 am

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It's interesting that it is clearly stated that there are forts around Manticore and Sphinx, but they didn't react to the debris. They certainly can be excused for not reacting to the original attack, but if there was time for tugs to run around trying to catch stuff it certainly seems like that was enough time for them to be able react intelligently.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:22 am

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kzt wrote:It's interesting that it is clearly stated that there are forts around Manticore and Sphinx, but they didn't react to the debris. They certainly can be excused for not reacting to the original attack, but if there was time for tugs to run around trying to catch stuff it certainly seems like that was enough time for them to be able react intelligently.

Thinking about it forts would probably be in a higher orbit than the stations. That would give them unobstructed firing arc against attackers moving towards the planet.

But that would leave them poorly positioned to deflect or break up large debris falling from lower orbit towards the planet. You might get lucky and have a shot tangent to to planet but most of the debris would be between you and the planet. Firing missiles or energy mounts through the debris field that was the stations at the planet might make things worse. Or at least the concern might cause enough delay to render your reaction worthless.


For that matter do we know for sure that Oyster Bay left any orbital forts alone? Guess they could be part of the debris problem instead...
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:52 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:For that matter do we know for sure that Oyster Bay left any orbital forts alone? Guess they could be part of the debris problem instead...

Seems doubtful to me that they were even targeted:

It is possible to equip spacecraft with such a huge mass of armor that they can “shrug off” enemy fire. These spacecraft are common enough to have their own special name. It is “fort.”
(From "An Introduction to Modern Starship Armor Design")
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:52 am

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kzt wrote:It's interesting that it is clearly stated that there are forts around Manticore and Sphinx, but they didn't react to the debris. They certainly can be excused for not reacting to the original attack, but if there was time for tugs to run around trying to catch stuff it certainly seems like that was enough time for them to be able react intelligently.

Can you point to textev that there were forts in orbit of Manticore and Sphinx? My recollection is that there were not forts in orbit. That is one reason that new forts are currently being constructed in orbit, with full Apollo support.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:57 am

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Someone once found a passage where they talked about upgrading the Manticore and Spinx forts and how they had not quite gotten Apollo on them before 2nd fleet dropped by for tea. I'd been arguing that there were none, but that was not correct.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:14 am

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kzt wrote:Someone once found a passage where they talked about upgrading the Manticore and Spinx forts and how they had not quite gotten Apollo on them before 2nd fleet dropped by for tea. I'd been arguing that there were none, but that was not correct.
Hmm, maybe its in a Pearl somewhere. I did a search through my ebooks [keyword search for "forts"] and the closest I found was from AAC - but it isn't definative on what Manticore-A's defenses were.
At All Costs wrote:If something had to be exposed, cold logic said Gryphon was a better choice than the other two planets, and the Admiralty had compensated as best it could by assigning the buildup of Manticore-B's fixed defenses a higher priority than Manticore-A's. In fact, Manticore-B's forts and space station were already refitting with Keyhole II and would begin deploying the first of the system-defense Apollo pods within the next three weeks, on the theory that it would need them worse since it couldn't call as readily on Home Fleet's protection.
And once Manticore-B's defenses were fully up to speed, Sphinx would receive the next highest priority, despite the fact that the planet of Manticore had the largest population and the greatest economic and industrial value of any of the binary system's worls. Like Manticore-B, Sphinx was simply more exposed than Manticore.
That might imply that like Manticore-B Manticore-A also had forts; but the text doesn't actually say that -- just that Sphinx would get next priority on defensive upgrades.

Now something has to provide fire control for those Apollo pods - and it makes more sense (to me) to put that into a hardened fort rather than just running a Keyhole II from a station. But I failed to find a specific text reference to orbital forts around Manticore or Sphinx.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:15 pm

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Thanks Harold. I really had NO idea and never bothered to look it up! I thought it was obvious about its etymology too. I was probably off there as well, but since its origins are NOT really known, just PERHAPS I am right on the money. In fact, if the two were given as a choice on a game show before you brought it to my attention, I would have blown it.

In case you are interested in my thoughts of its etymology. It is as follows...

In the UK there has been a serious problem of the theft of sheep, lamb. Sheep is the adult. Lamb is the more tender young. Even today in the 21st century there still exists crimes of this nature. In the olden days most thieves stole the younger lambs to stave off hunger - meat much more tender, juicier, tastier and cooks much faster. Therefore, evidence gone. Centuries ago, theft was met with severe punishment - an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, thrashings, floggings - you get the idea. As I said, the crime is still rampant even today. Incidentally, I had read the following site quite some time ago. Took me a while to find it.
[*1]
Rural thefts
On the lamb
A revival of an old crime (link at bottom)

Crime has been falling in Britain since the mid-1990's, with a few exceptions. Police fret about rising online fraud and phishing scams perpetuated by sophisticated global criminal networks. And then there's sheep rustling.

Between 2010 and 2011 the cost of theft of farm animals shot up by 170 %, according to NFU mutual, which insures three-quarters of Britains farmers.

I very much think that the original phrase went far back to at least the 14-15th centuries and was actually "On the lamb." I would hazard an educated guess that the phrase originally meant, specifically, someone who has rustled, is in the act of rustling and perhaps also on the run or even in the act of being punished. Somehow, I think the b was intentionally dropped for whatever reason, perhaps to distinguish from lamb, or just plain lost in adoption. Or perhaps the b is just - on the lamb. lol

[*3]
Interesting (to me at least): I was visiting some very dear friends in Ireland. I was there to help support a native of their village, Janet Devlin, of Gortin. County Tyrone. The mother of my friend knew the family well. All of Gortin know of them now. The little lass single-handedly put her remote village of Gortin on the map. She auditioned for X Factor. You may remember her. I shall include a link at the bottom of the page. Anyways, while I was there was the first time I heard the word lambaste. Mostly as a threat to little rambunctious lads. When enquiring about it, I was told with much emotion that it is used to describe the punishment of sheep rustlers. In Ireland, with so much beautiful green grazing land, full grown sheep are stolen. In other words, the problem also exists in Ireland.


lambast: to beat or whip severely. Flog. Castigate. Thrash. Thresh.
lambaste: To hit heavily or repeatedly with violent blows.
lam + baste:
lam: 1590-1600, To beat or thrash.
lam: Not until late 19th century has it come to mean to escape or flee. (perhaps fleeing from the floggings.)
baste: To beat with a stick; thrash; cudgel. 1425-75 Late Middle English basten, also of obscure origin.

Etymology 2
From Old Norse lamb.


lam n (singular definite lammet, plural indefinite lam)
lamb

⦁ Etymology 1
From Middle Dutch lamp, lam, from Old Dutch *lamb, from Proto-Germanic *lambaz. Cognate with lamb, German Lamm.
lam n ‎(plural lammeren, diminutive lammetje n)
1. A 1. lamb, the 1. young of a 1. sheep
2. (2. metonymically) The meat - or fleece/wool produce of a lamb; a dish prepared from lamb's meat.

Then there's this...
The World's Most Coveted Masterpiece

('The Just Judges' panel is still missing - still on the lam(b).)

[*2]
The Ghent Altarpiece (also called the Adoration of the Mystic Lamb or The Lamb of God, Dutch: Het Lam Gods) is a very large and complex early 15th-century Early Flemish polyptych panel painting. The altarpiece comprises 12 panels, eight of which are hinged shutters. Each wing is painted on either side, giving two distinct views depending on whether they are open or closed. Except for Sundays and festive holidays, the outer wings were closed and often covered with cloth. It was commissioned to Hubert van Eyck, about whom little is known. He was most likely responsible for the overall design, but died in 1426. It seems to have been principally executed and completed by his younger and better known brother Jan van Eyck between 1430 and 1432.[1] Although there have been extensive attempts to isolate passages attributable to either brother, no separation has been convincingly established. Today, most accept that the work was probably designed and constructed by Hubert and that the individual panels were painted by Jan.
-snip-

The altarpiece has been moved several times over the centuries. Art historian Noah Charney describes the altarpiece as one of the more coveted and desired pieces of art, the victim of 13 crimes since its installation, and seven thefts. After the French Revolution the altarpiece was among a number of art works plundered in today's Belgium and taken to Paris where they were exhibited at the Louvre. It was returned to Ghent in 1815 after the French defeat at the Battle of Waterloo.[97] The painting's wings (not including the Adam and Eve panels)[97] were pawned in 1815 by the Diocese of Ghent for the equivalent of £240. When the diocese failed to redeem them, they were sold by the dealer Nieuwenhuys in 1816 to the English collector Edward Solly for £4,000. The pieces spent some months in London, during which time the new owner unsuccessfully sought a buyer. They were later bought by the King of Prussia for £16,000, an enormous sum at the time, and for many decades they were exhibited in the Gemäldegalerie, Berlin.[98] The panels still in Ghent were damaged by fire in 1822, and the separately hinged Adam and Eve panels sent to a museum in Brussels.[89]
During World War I, other panels were taken from the cathedral by German forces. Under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles and its subsequent reparations transfers, Germany returned all the panels,[5] and, in 1920, after a century of separation, all the panels were again in Ghent. In 1934, the panels of 'The Just Judges' and 'Saint John the Baptist', were stolen. The panel of 'Saint John the Baptist' was returned by the thief as a goodwill gesture, but the 'The Just Judges' panel is still missing.[89] The Germans "bitterly resented the loss of the panels" and, at the start of another invasion by Germany in 1940, a decision was made in Belgium to send the altarpiece to the Vatican to keep it safe.[5] The painting was in France, en route to the Vatican, when Italy declared war as an Axis power alongside Germany. The painting was stored in a museum in Pau, and French, Belgian and German military representatives signed an agreement which required the consent of all three before the masterpiece could be moved.[5] In 1942, Adolf Hitler ordered the painting to be seized and brought to Germany to be stored in the Schloss Neuschwanstein castle in Bavaria. After Allied air raids made the castle too dangerous for the painting, it was stored in the Altaussee salt mines.[99] Belgian and French authorities protested against the seizing of the painting, and the head of the German army's Art Protection Unit was dismissed after he disagreed with the seizure.[99]
The altarpiece was recovered by the Allied group Monuments, Fine Arts, and Archives program after the war and returned to Belgium in a ceremony presided over by Belgian royalty at the Royal Palace of Brussels, where the 17 panels were displayed for the press. No French officials were invited, as the Vichy French had allowed the Germans to remove the painting.[100] The altarpiece and its recovery were featured in the 2014 movie, The Monuments Men.


*1 http://www.economist.com/news/britain/2 ... crime-lamb
*2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghent_Altarpiece
*3 https://youtu.be/f4EE4bIFixQ
I was at that audition of little Janet Devlin. There were close to thirty of us there for her support. She's the loveliest, most shy girl you'd ever want to meet. BUT THAT VOICE! I could listen to her talk and sing for hours.

Stealing Sheep is so common in the UK that there's even a pop band by the same name from Liverpool.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by munroburton   » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:44 pm

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kzt wrote:It's interesting that it is clearly stated that there are forts around Manticore and Sphinx, but they didn't react to the debris. They certainly can be excused for not reacting to the original attack, but if there was time for tugs to run around trying to catch stuff it certainly seems like that was enough time for them to be able react intelligently.


They may have been in quite high orbits, up to half a million kilometres. Against enemies deploying mass MDMs with poor fire control, you don't want your forts in low orbit. At the very least, keep them well beyond a MDM laserhead's stand-off range.

At those distances, their point-defense lasers are out of range. They have missiles of their own, which are of little use(spin-up time). Grasers? Possible, but that's an awful lot of firepower to shoot past your homeworlds with.
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