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Honorverse ramblings and musings

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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Hutch   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:35 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
cthia wrote:When did Manticore split the Silesian Confeseracy with the Andermani? Last I heard, Manticore had no desire to do that. And what did Haven and Grayson have to say about it? Wouldn't they have a say in it?

Does anyone recall of which novel bore textev of that?

End of War of Honor - not long after Thunderbolt, the fall of the High Ridge Government, and just before Honor got back from Sidemore.


The textev man reports, from WoH:

"But as far as the Andermani are concerned, the Lords' support for domestic finance reform is beside the point. What's going to bring the Empire in on our side is the fact that all of that ideological resistance to anything smacking of 'imperialism' went down the toilet along with High Ridge and New Kiev. Something like it would probably have materialized again soon enough, except for the fact that it's not going to have the chance to. Because later this week, Willie is going to propose to a joint session of Parliament that the Star Kingdom and the Andermani Empire finally bring an end to the incessant bloodletting and atrocities in Silesia."

"Oh, my God. You can't be serious!"

"Of course I can. I don't say it would have been my first choice of how to proceed, but I certainly understand the logic. And the Peeps haven't left us very much choice, either. We need the Andies to survive, Honor, and their price is the extension of their frontier into Silesia." He shrugged. "Well, if we're going to be in for a penny, we may as well be in for a dollar."

"And if the Confederacy government objects to being partitioned between two foreign powers?" Honor demanded.

"You've been to Silesia more than most of our officers," White Haven said. "Do you really think the average Silly wouldn't actively prefer to be a Manticoran subject?"
Honor started to reply quickly, then stopped. He had a point. All the average Silesian really wanted was safety, order, and a government that actually considered her wishes and well-being rather than seeing her as one more potential source of graft and corruption.

"Whatever the average Silly wants, the Confed government may not see things quite the same way," she pointed out.
"The Confed government consists of a bunch of corrupt, self-seeking, moneygrubbing grifters, thieves, and conmen whose concerns begin and end with their own bank accounts," White Haven said flatly. "For God's sake, Honor! You know perfectly well that the government of the Silesian Confederacy is probably the only bunch of crooks who could actually make High Ridge and Descroix look good by comparison."

Despite her grave reservations, Honor's lips quivered in appreciation of White Haven's comparison.

"Willie and Sir Anthony are already in the process of coming up with what's going to amount to a massive bribe," he went on with an expression of distaste. "Together with Gustav, they're going to buy the existing government off. Most of its members will do very well out of the deal. But the hook they don't know about is that we're going to be serious about requiring them to obey the law afterward. We may pay them off now and effectively amnesty them for past crimes, but we'll come down on them like the Hammer of God the first time they try to go back to business as usual under new management." He shrugged. "I'm not too sure how I feel about the methodology, but the final outcome is going to be that we get an ally we desperately need, a problem which has been a source of tension between us and the Empire for the last sixty or seventy T-years gets resolved once and for all, and—maybe most important of all—we finally bring an end to a situation which has been costing literally hundreds of thousands of lives every single year in Silesia."
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What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:37 am

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The Silesian Confeseracy gets cut into roughly two parts with the Andermani getting one half and Manticore the other. The two powers acted together. They made the same "deal" the the Confed leadership (et al) that existed within the two new spheres of control/ownershi. They are both going to fully enforce the New laws (Aldermani in one and Manticorian in the other) though Sillies in the new Aldermani area who attempt to keep doing the same old way are probably going to be much worse off than those in the Manticore area- The Aldermani are much more likely to invoke capital punishment (he attempted to resist arrest) than slap a long prison term on things. Might even give the offender a trial and then kill them.

In both areas, the overlay and often outright replacement of the various system/planitary legal systems should help the actual populations as far as providing a stable and consistant system and will cut down on the amount of graft and political games. It will take a bit but Sarnov and (I am sure) the Aldermani commander in the area will be sure to make very public examples of breaking the new laws and turning up the heat to make sure things are enforced.

Sure there will be complaints but since neither Manticore nor the Aldermani are likely to step in and either nationalise nor transfer ownership of things to friends there will not be the wholesale problems of a takeover by one of the agressive Transtellars. I'm sure there will be some taking of property but it will be done both publicly and with lots of ligitimate evidence to justify the moves.

Another piece of the puzzle is that both withing their "new" empires, and between the two empires, trade, tariff and other regulations will both ease or go away. That, plus the elimination (mostly) of the graft and corruption from the Confed arrangements should both lower the cost of goods being imported/exported from the various systems and put the flow of fees and customs duties into the government hands (at appropriate levels) to be used for the government rather than individuals.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:38 am

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A few concerns, questions.

First, I don't know why Manticore would have been interested in a cesspool like Silesia in the first place. Except to prevent Haven from grabbing it. But then, if that was the case, why wouldn't they have just let the Andermani have it anyways -- which would have kept it out of the hands of Haven and ensured that something would have been done about piracy? Unless Manticore was worried about Andermani expansionism.

Also, how exactly do you divide nine star systems in half? One can imagine.

Sectors
◾ Breslau Sector
◾ Carlton Sector
◾ Hillman Sector
◾ Posnan Sector
◾ Sachsen Sector
◾ Saginaw Sector
◾ Silesia Sector
◾ Terrance Sector
◾ Tumult Sector

And what shall become of the Silesian Confederate Navy (SCN).

Are there any sectors in Silesia that might be of strategic geographic importance to Manticore?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Duckk   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:20 pm

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Silesia had over 60 star systems, not 9.

As for why Manticore was interested in Silesia, they were a significant trade partner, both as a producer of raw materials, and consumer of finished goods.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Theemile   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:24 pm

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cthia wrote:A few concerns, questions.

First, I don't know why Manticore would have been interested in a cesspool like Silesia in the first place. Except to prevent Haven from grabbing it. But then, if that was the case, why wouldn't they have just let the Andermani have it anyways -- which would have kept it out of the hands of Haven and ensured that something would have been done about piracy? Unless Manticore was worried about Andermani expansionism.

Also, how exactly do you divide nine star systems in half? One can imagine.

Sectors
◾ Breslau Sector
◾ Carlton Sector
◾ Hillman Sector
◾ Posnan Sector
◾ Sachsen Sector
◾ Saginaw Sector
◾ Silesia Sector
◾ Terrance Sector
◾ Tumult Sector

And what shall become of the Silesian Confederate Navy (SCN).

Are there any sectors in Silesia that might be of strategic geographic importance to Manticore?


There's a picture in HoS with the map of the area Manticore annexed in Silensia. It's very small but shows a line running roughly SW to NE, With Manticore getting the southern part. Manticore got the Chalice and Silensia, All the Terrance, Hillman and Saginaw sectors are in Manticore hands, with parts of Silensia, Tumult, and most or All of Posnan.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:35 pm

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cthia wrote:A few concerns, questions.

First, I don't know why Manticore would have been interested in a cesspool like Silesia in the first place. Except to prevent Haven from grabbing it. But then, if that was the case, why wouldn't they have just let the Andermani have it anyways -- which would have kept it out of the hands of Haven and ensured that something would have been done about piracy? Unless Manticore was worried about Andermani expansionism.

Also, how exactly do you divide nine star systems in half? One can imagine.

Sectors
◾ Breslau Sector
◾ Carlton Sector
◾ Hillman Sector
◾ Posnan Sector
◾ Sachsen Sector
◾ Saginaw Sector
◾ Silesia Sector
◾ Terrance Sector
◾ Tumult Sector

And what shall become of the Silesian Confederate Navy (SCN).

Are there any sectors in Silesia that might be of strategic geographic importance to Manticore?

A few answers. :)

A) Manticore could have given all of Silesia to the Andermani, but I assume they did not want to give that big a chunk of territory to them. Manticore has had commercial interests in Silesia for hundreds of years; splitting it guarantees Manticore continued access to much of the territory, no matter what happens to the Anderman Empire. It also makes clear to the Andermani that Manticore will tolerate only so much Andermani expansionism, and gives Manticore the physical presence to stare them down if necessary.

White Haven made clear that the plan is not what he would have sought out. That is likely true for much of the Government. But, since the Anderman Empire insisted on getting at least part of Silesia as part of the deal, this is probably as good as Manticore could do.

White Haven also points out that this does have the benefit of removing a long-standing thorn in Manticore's side.

B) The sectors in Silesia have different numbers of inhabited systems, so merely counting the sectors is not useful. 34 systems went to the Anderman Empire, and 34 systems went to Manticore. The split is not exactly along the borders of the former Silesian sectors.

C) The Silesia navy has presumably been disbanded. Manticore is unlikely to want any of their ships.

D) All sectors in Silesia would be considered of strategic geographic importance to Manticore.

And anticipating another question you haven't asked yet, the Silesian systems of Manticore are currently considered the equivalent of Possessions, with local system governance and direct Imperial control at the regional level. Eventually, when the area has been cleaned up, they will probably be permitted to organize into a Constitutional Convention and gain representation in the Imperial Parliament similar to the Talbott Quadrant.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:48 pm

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And anticipating yet another question, Admiral Sarnow is in command of Ninth Fleet, pacifying Silesia and integrating the remains of Silesia's navy into the RMN.

(I'm somewhat surprised you hadn't asked a while back about all the references we've been making for a long time about Admiral Sarnow cleaning up Silesia. :) )
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Hutch   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:01 pm

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SWM wrote:And anticipating yet another question, Admiral Sarnow is in command of Ninth Fleet, pacifying Silesia and integrating the remains of Silesia's navy into the RMN.

(I'm somewhat surprised you hadn't asked a while back about all the references we've been making for a long time about Admiral Sarnow cleaning up Silesia. :) )


Sarnow seems to be in the same situation as the American Army General Joseph "Vinegar Joe" Stillwell was during WWII; highly regarded by his peers, thought to be a superb tactician and battlefield general, instead spending the war in China, with minimal US forces and an 'ally' that was often more trouble than the Japanese.

Poor Sarnow is the 'forgotten man' and I hope RFC rescues him from his necessary labors and gives him a battle fleet in the next book.
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No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:45 pm

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Hutch wrote:
SWM wrote:And anticipating yet another question, Admiral Sarnow is in command of Ninth Fleet, pacifying Silesia and integrating the remains of Silesia's navy into the RMN.

(I'm somewhat surprised you hadn't asked a while back about all the references we've been making for a long time about Admiral Sarnow cleaning up Silesia. :) )


Sarnow seems to be in the same situation as the American Army General Joseph "Vinegar Joe" Stillwell was during WWII; highly regarded by his peers, thought to be a superb tactician and battlefield general, instead spending the war in China, with minimal US forces and an 'ally' that was often more trouble than the Japanese.

Poor Sarnow is the 'forgotten man' and I hope RFC rescues him from his necessary labors and gives him a battle fleet in the next book.

Regarding Sarnow, I wasn't even aware that he was out and about. Whenever did he get Ninth Fleet? All of the talk about him cleaning up Silesia, I thought was just wishful thinking if and when he was ever back operational. But alas, whenever will I fully catch up?

Anyways, thanks for all of your answers.

@Duck, sorry, I meant 9 sectors. But even so, I should have fully reasoned that there were sixty star systems seeded throughout.

I guess I got distracted while inwardly reflecting about how that whole scenario will actually play itself out. It reminds me of when Berlin was divided between East and West and caught everyone unprepared. I've befriended many Germans who've told me of horror stories told to them. And actually talked to some of their relatives who remembers a sordid past.

I'm not saying Silesia mirrors that in any way. But the two Empires are vastly different in governments and I'm considering practical things like family members and loved ones caught on separate sides of the demarcating line having to scramble. And IMO the division only seems to simply prolong both Empire's imminent clash. Perhaps even sets up a time of ratcheted up tensions at some future time as their focus seems to be aimed at each other. Are we looking at the Honorverse equivalent of the need of a Neutral Zone?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:23 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:If that is true, how long would it take to implement many of those advancements from 'clear across the board?' R&D really is the most chokingly restrictive bottleneck isn't it?


Part of the problem is that the Solarian Weapons R&D is privately funded and without any real connection to reality -- the Honorverse equivalent of putting Lord Skimper in charge of R&D.

Examples of Solarian R&D have been seen, most notably in the Cromarty Assassination. The assassin missiles worked very well except they only worked very well in those tightly restricted set of circumstances. As a general issue weapon, they'd be next to useless.

The Infamous Charles peddles Solarian weapons tech which is innovative, performs well in his carefully scripted demonstrations, but would be totally worthless as general issue equipment.

One has to assume that Solarian military R&D is very much like the RMN's Juene Ecole of the early novels; throw out as many ridiculous ideas as possible and see which sticks to something. They have no conception of operational realities, nor does SLN's senior leadership, so they have no conception of what needs improvement or how to improve it.
There have also been a couple minor examples that show that not even SLN bureaucracy can prevent some good things from making it through R&D and out into the fleet.

The numbers Duckk gave for the Javelin based Cataphract 1st stage show that the SLN's shipkillers have about a 3.5% accel advantage over any shipkiller we've seen out of Manticore or Haven. Now those are SDMs, not even ERMs much less MDMs. But once League R&D cracks (or steal) the baffle trick to enable true MDMs they can build missiles that, by my calculations, would have almost an extra 2.3 million km of continuously powered range compared to Mk23s. Or put another way, they'd reach the 65.7 million km max range of the Mk23 about 9 seconds faster than a Mk23 could.
Of course without microfusion power they'd have far less power for ECM than dazzlers and dragon's teeth; and without Apollo they'd have far less accuracy at those kinds of ranges than Manticore. But still an example of where SLN is ahead in based missile drive-node tech.

Also if I recall correctly knowledgable Manties thought well of the basic hardware of the SLN's new Halo EMC/decoy platforms. The software was garbage, which let the idea down, but the basic engineering and inherent capabilites were inovative and potentially up there with Haven sector tractored platforms (though probably not up with Manticore's newest free-flying Lorelie decoys)

So their tech isn't all one-shot ideas or dead ends getting unloaded on unsuspecting Verge navies; some of it is quite good. And who knows what toys are still sitting back in the R&D labs that haven't gotten authorization to be deployed to the fleet.



That said, it's going to take a new generation of SDs to really take advantage of the that new tech, and to handle the radically altered combat environment; and that should take years to design and build. Years they're unlikely to have.
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