Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 29 guests

Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:45 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

cthia wrote:Throughout the series there's always talk of reparations being paid. Should the League pay reparations, who would they pay reparations to, exactly? Manticore, for three destroyers? To the families of murdered officers? Both? Other?

I think the references to reparations you recall from the books are reparations between governments. One government gives reparations to another government. The receiving government is responsible for distributing any reparations to families or individuals.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:49 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Storm From the Shadows
"We're coming up on the deployment point now, Commodore."

"Thank you, Captain Jacobi," Commodore Karol Østby replied, nodding to the woman on his com display.

Captain Rachel Jacobi looked like any other merchant service officer, although she might have been just a little young for her current rank. Appearances could be deceiving, however, and not just because of prolong. Rachel Jacobi was even younger for her actual rank than she seemed, not to mention an officer in a navy the rest of the galaxy didn't even know existed . . . yet.

How can an officer make captain in a navy that doesn't exist? From mockup battles against... itself?

Come excrement hitting the fan, a navy whose officers have not been battle hardened yet promoted on seniority alone makes for broken blades when the excrement hits.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:52 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

cthia wrote:Question. Who are the SDF? Where exactly do they sit on the scale of SLN military experience between Battle Fleet and OFS?

And where would the SDF have witnessed Manty tech, Monica?

The System Defense Forces are controlled entirely by their home systems, individual member units of the League. David has indicated that many, perhaps most, of them are somewhat more advanced than the SLN, and far more adaptable and open-minded. We don't have any more details than that.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:55 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

cthia wrote:Storm From the Shadows
"We're coming up on the deployment point now, Commodore."

"Thank you, Captain Jacobi," Commodore Karol Østby replied, nodding to the woman on his com display.

Captain Rachel Jacobi looked like any other merchant service officer, although she might have been just a little young for her current rank. Appearances could be deceiving, however, and not just because of prolong. Rachel Jacobi was even younger for her actual rank than she seemed, not to mention an officer in a navy the rest of the galaxy didn't even know existed . . . yet.

How can an officer make captain in a navy that doesn't exist? From mockup battles against... itself?

Come excrement hitting the fan, a navy whose officers have not been battle hardened yet promoted on seniority alone makes for broken blades when the excrement hits.

The text doesn't say that the navy doesn't exist--it says that the rest of the galaxy doesn't know it exists.

There are numerous navies in the world that have never fought a war. They still need officers. People still get promoted to new ranks during peacetime.

There has been extensive discussion on this forum in the past on the lack of actual battle experience in the Mesan Alignment Navy. Everyone agrees with you that this is likely to pose problems.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by munroburton   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:39 pm

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2379
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

SWM wrote:The text doesn't say that the navy doesn't exist--it says that the rest of the galaxy doesn't know it exists.

There are numerous navies in the world that have never fought a war. They still need officers. People still get promoted to new ranks during peacetime.

There has been extensive discussion on this forum in the past on the lack of actual battle experience in the Mesan Alignment Navy. Everyone agrees with you that this is likely to pose problems.


Some problems, yes. Look at what happened to a few RMN officers(some of them with flags!) in the early-to-mid stages of the Havenite war. Styles, Young, Yeargin and Santino leap to mind. And there's a line somewhere about how many senior officers Caparelli beached or rotated into non-line duty in those years, when they proved to be ill-suited to battle.

The MAN may have one extremely successful operation under its belt now. However, it has never actually fought an opponent who was fighting back. I'm curious as to how they'll do when they sit that exam.

The MAN is basically a navy that has spent its time playing Battlestations: Pacific(or your choice of naval sims). On hard settings, for all the difference it makes(as opposed to the SLN playing on Very Easy). It's now facing enemies with cumulative living experience equivalent to WW1 and WW2, from both sides, working together.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:29 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Storm From the Shadows
"I think our friends in Manticore have been getting just a little too full of themselves," he went on. "They got away with demanding that technology embargo against the Havenites. They've gotten away with raising their Junction fees across the board to help pay for their damned war. They've just finished dividing the Silesian Confederacy right down the middle with the Andermani. And they've just finished annexing the entire Talbott Sector and shooting up the entire Monican Navy, not to mention turning the League into the villain of the piece in Monica and the Talbott Sector. They must feel like they've been on a roll, and I think it may be time for us to remind them that they're actually only a very tiny fish in a really big pond."

When did Manticore split the Silesian Confeseracy with the Andermani? Last I heard, Manticore had no desire to do that. And what did Haven and Grayson have to say about it? Wouldn't they have a say in it?

Does anyone recall of which novel bore textev of that?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:38 pm

JeffEngel
Admiral

Posts: 2074
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:06 pm

cthia wrote:Storm From the Shadows
"I think our friends in Manticore have been getting just a little too full of themselves," he went on. "They got away with demanding that technology embargo against the Havenites. They've gotten away with raising their Junction fees across the board to help pay for their damned war. They've just finished dividing the Silesian Confederacy right down the middle with the Andermani. And they've just finished annexing the entire Talbott Sector and shooting up the entire Monican Navy, not to mention turning the League into the villain of the piece in Monica and the Talbott Sector. They must feel like they've been on a roll, and I think it may be time for us to remind them that they're actually only a very tiny fish in a really big pond."

When did Manticore split the Silesian Confeseracy with the Andermani? Last I heard, Manticore had no desire to do that. And what did Haven and Grayson have to say about it? Wouldn't they have a say in it?

Does anyone recall of which novel bore textev of that?

End of War of Honor - not long after Thunderbolt, the fall of the High Ridge Government, and just before Honor got back from Sidemore.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:06 pm

JeffEngel
Admiral

Posts: 2074
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:06 pm

cthia wrote:A very poignant point. Which necessitates that the Forakers should step up to the plate and identify themselves -- in which my previous post seems to give indication of possibly happening. Great navies are an amalgamation of great single individuals and one great naval officer can make a difference -- placing the Salamander on referenced exhibit.
Do note that that was al-Fanudahi to his Frontier Fleet coworker, Irene (cannot remember her last name). He's a pariah with a career that was practically dead for having been insistent about being remotely realistic, and he's cautioning her to keep an eye out because they still cannot count on anyone ever listening to him.

Great navies are an amalgamation of individuals of whatever caliber able to do great things together. The SLN's been picked out of officers able to advance their careers in an utterly satisfied, peacetime-forever Battle Fleet or a Frontier Fleet that's a tool of transtellars seizing poor star systems under cover of an idealistic white-wash. Some people have gotten somewhere in it despite ideals or patriotism; actual tactical aptitude, beyond an ability to keep up with 50+ year old basics, hasn't been an actual impediment like that but it hasn't really helped. So for any of your Great Men or Great Women to make a difference, they have to shoulder aside that whole institution. In the RMN, PN, or RHN, that institution got behind their excellent leaders and consummate professionals - more or less, if not with all the reliability or exclusivity one may have liked, especially before Basilisk in the RMN or under the CPS for Haven.

The SLN simply isn't organized to fight that way.
One of the main problems I see on behalf of the SLN is the unwillingness of competent officers to want to risk their careers thinking, and accepting facts, outside of the box for fear of professional suicide. They are ineffective against their own institutional arrogance. Yet, it would only take key members within the SLN to 'put it on the line' and be damned, for the sake of the League's survival. That isn't such a difficulty now nor can it any longer be so quickly thought of as professional suicide. Their disastrous battles has seen to that.

It would take more than that. No one is going to follow them. Oh, plenty of people would want to. Plenty would think maybe they should. But everyone in the SLN has joined and served and reached a position where they've got the rank to do anything or be seen or heard precisely by knowing what will or will not fly and lead to promotion in the SLN. It'd take a heroic turnaround by a flag officer with an independent command to do anything of that sort without being immediately bucked down by a superior, and it's a rare bird who'd hide that independent streak that well and get that senior who can still exercise it that well. Tom Theisman managed it fairly well, but he had a lot of close calls, a lot of luck, Denis LePic running interference, and still a Navy that was vastly more institutionally prepared to back him - and he still had to fight a civil war afterward.

Running around screaming about neo-barb technical superiority is - to put it mildly - not what leads to a successful career in the SLN officer corps, but it's a pretty good way to put what candid realism would demand about now.

Even al-Fanudahi is getting listened to now less as a matter of people thinking that he's really saying believable things than as a matter of everyone needing to look like they're Doing Something Serious and getting briefings by the institution's resident prophet of doom is that - while they are all of them aching to catch him out in something that's clearly overly pessimistic, defeatist, or both, so as to nail him and get a happy sense of relief. That's why he's prepping Irene to bear the job, or at least play a more conservative back-up - so some voice of reason can survive his inevitable disgrace and purge.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by kzt   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:26 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

You obviously are not very familiar with the USN circa 1941 if you think that state of affairs is unusual.
Top
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by SWM   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:34 pm

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

cthia wrote:Storm From the Shadows
"I think our friends in Manticore have been getting just a little too full of themselves," he went on. "They got away with demanding that technology embargo against the Havenites. They've gotten away with raising their Junction fees across the board to help pay for their damned war. They've just finished dividing the Silesian Confederacy right down the middle with the Andermani. And they've just finished annexing the entire Talbott Sector and shooting up the entire Monican Navy, not to mention turning the League into the villain of the piece in Monica and the Talbott Sector. They must feel like they've been on a roll, and I think it may be time for us to remind them that they're actually only a very tiny fish in a really big pond."

When did Manticore split the Silesian Confeseracy with the Andermani? Last I heard, Manticore had no desire to do that. And what did Haven and Grayson have to say about it? Wouldn't they have a say in it?

Does anyone recall of which novel bore textev of that?

Haven certainly didn't have anything to say about it, because they were still at war with Manticore. The split of Silesia was part of the agreement getting the Anderman Empire into the Manticoran Alliance against Haven, after Haven attacked Sidemore, far closer to the Andermani than they liked and in apparent contradiction to the overtures Haven had been making to the Andermani.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top

Return to Honorverse