Sustainability vs Survivalist

Daryl wrote:Coming originally from a farming background I'm amused by the Honorverse discussions on how blockaded planets could quickly ramp up food production.
Takes time to grow, and that's after setting up the ground and the support infrastructure. Two sustenance crops - potato and maize take 15 to 20 weeks from planting to harvesting, and you need seed stock plus farming equipment as well as prepared land or hydroponics.
Feeding billions without the infrastructure in place would not be easy.

Even radishes, in the correct season, take several weeks to grow. With lettuce in the correct season, it is possible to start picking off a few of the leaves after several weeks. We no longer do hunting and gathering, except as hobbies, not because it is impossible, but because the infrastructure allows more food for less work/unit production. Doesn't hurt to learn something about wild foods: some people have survived famines by knowing what can be eaten, and what will kill.

Infrastructure takes time and effort (ie expenses) to build. One thing worth looking at is aquaponics: More productive than hydroponics, lower running costs, less fussy, and the infrastructure requirements are only slightly higher. If you want to try it, look up "barrel aquaponics." The only problem is that if it freezes or gets too hot, it takes several months to get production up again. OTOH, for someone willing to run such a system, it can provide food even in the city if sunlight is available. Aquaponics is easy on the land, uses less water, doesn't pollute, and is simple enough for DIY construction. Since it is an nearly closed system, it can be used almost anyplace where neither freezing nor overheating occur and there is sunlight.

DDHvi wrote:

Daryl wrote:Coming originally from a farming background I'm amused by the Honorverse discussions on how blockaded planets could quickly ramp up food production.
Takes time to grow, and that's after setting up the ground and the support infrastructure. Two sustenance crops - potato and maize take 15 to 20 weeks from planting to harvesting, and you need seed stock plus farming equipment as well as prepared land or hydroponics.
Feeding billions without the infrastructure in place would not be easy.

Even radishes, in the correct season, take several weeks to grow. With lettuce in the correct season, it is possible to start picking off a few of the leaves after several weeks. We no longer do hunting and gathering, except as hobbies, not because it is impossible, but because the infrastructure allows more food for less work/unit production. Doesn't hurt to learn something about wild foods: some people have survived famines by knowing what can be eaten, and what will kill.

Infrastructure takes time and effort (ie expenses) to build. One thing worth looking at is aquaponics: More productive than hydroponics, lower running costs, less fussy, and the infrastructure requirements are only slightly higher. If you want to try it, look up "barrel aquaponics." The only problem is that if it freezes or gets too hot, it takes several months to get production up again. OTOH, for someone willing to run such a system, it can provide food even in the city if sunlight is available. Aquaponics is easy on the land, uses less water, doesn't pollute, and is simple enough for DIY construction. Since it is an nearly closed system, it can be used almost anyplace where neither freezing nor overheating occur and there is sunlight.

It also takes knowledge. A HUGE part of the success of commercial agriculture is knowing what you are doing. Trying to ramp up production quickly, build aquaponic facilities etc etc is going to take a lot of know how. There will be a few experts around if they get listened to. But how many planets will listen to some politically correct "expert" rather than the people who have actually done it?

biochem wrote:It also takes knowledge. A HUGE part of the success of commercial agriculture is knowing what you are doing. Trying to ramp up production quickly, build aquaponic facilities etc etc is going to take a lot of know how. There will be a few experts around if they get listened to. But how many planets will listen to some politically correct "expert" rather than the people who have actually done it?

I count knowledge and understanding as the most critical part of infrastructure, even though it is not material.

Not just commercial growing. The book, "Let's Get Growing," by Crow Miller, was written by a man who was Amish trained, and went on from there. The intro says that Cornell U. did a study showing 7.5 times the productivity/area as conventional methods. Note this requires dirt-under-the-fingernails knowledge and understanding, and many are just not willing to learn and do what is needed for this.

The Bible states that knowledge is as valuable as silver, understanding as valuable as gold, and wisdom more valuable than precious gems. It also states that in the last days, many will run to and fro, and knowledge will increase.

It doesn't say we will have the wisdom to use knowledge and understanding well - which is one place where realistic fiction resonates very strongly with reality

SF is our imagination about possible futures, and we should think the possibilities over, as some can be applied in real life.

What are the odds that given a social breakdown, there will be too many people robbing Amish and similar people instead of learning from them Production has to come before distribution, but too many don't want to do the learning and work needed.

as far as the home i am in the design process for, it will have solar panels and a small wind turbine or two. With the current technology the solar panels can be less than obvious and the turbines look like nothing more than vent hoods.. As far as the little hitler associations , i will make sure they have no authority over my property simply because i consider them to be highly illegal and extremely arrogant thinking they can dictate what you want to do with your property.

viciokie wrote:as far as the home i am in the design process for, it will have solar panels and a small wind turbine or two. With the current technology the solar panels can be less than obvious and the turbines look like nothing more than vent hoods.. As far as the little hitler associations , i will make sure they have no authority over my property simply because i consider them to be highly illegal and extremely arrogant thinking they can dictate what you want to do with your property.

You might look into an aquaponics setup also. IIreadC, it is several times as productive as external intensive gardening, and with a proper design, is inside, so weather has less effect. Windows are needed if you don't want to assume that enough electricity for lights will be available. For reference, if the figures in the back of "How to Grow more Vegetables, on Less Land than you can Imagine." by John Jeavons, are correct, it would be possible to support about 6,000 people per square mile on a full nutrition vegetarian diet with intensive gardening, in a normal North Dakota year.

Provided, of course, that you can find that many willing to work, including the work of gaining the needed knowledge.

Aquaponics would require one circulation pump, and perhaps a spare (Maybe a hand pump to an upper reservoir?).

DDHvi wrote:Infrastructure takes time and effort (ie expenses) to build. One thing worth looking at is aquaponics: More productive than hydroponics, lower running costs, less fussy, and the infrastructure requirements are only slightly higher. If you want to try it, look up "barrel aquaponics." The only problem is that if it freezes or gets too hot, it takes several months to get production up again. OTOH, for someone willing to run such a system, it can provide food even in the city if sunlight is available. Aquaponics is easy on the land, uses less water, doesn't pollute, and is simple enough for DIY construction. Since it is an nearly closed system, it can be used almost anyplace where neither freezing nor overheating occur and there is sunlight.

That depends on what the fish food is made out of. Which is often not great stuff, in terms of environmental impact.

DDHvi wrote:You might look into an aquaponics setup also. IIreadC, it is several times as productive as external intensive gardening, and with a proper design, is inside, so weather has less effect. Windows are needed if you don't want to assume that enough electricity for lights will be available. For reference, if the figures in the back of "How to Grow more Vegetables, on Less Land than you can Imagine." by John Jeavons, are correct, it would be possible to support about 6,000 people per square mile on a full nutrition vegetarian diet with intensive gardening, in a normal North Dakota year.

Provided, of course, that you can find that many willing to work, including the work of gaining the needed knowledge.

Aquaponics would require one circulation pump, and perhaps a spare (Maybe a hand pump to an upper reservoir?).

Aquaponics is really neat, and I used to run a small system. I probably still would if I didn't live in a 10th floor, 400 sqft downtown apartment.

But the whole 'super efficient closed system, better than intensive gardening for almost no effort or resources' thing is more propaganda than fact. You likely still need to supplement, and creating commercial fish food takes a ton of effort and is far from benign, environmentally. Aquaponics isn't magic high yield & low-effort gardening, it just outsources a lot of the effort to fish food factories. Mineral supplements barely take any effort, but don't forget those either.

If you're looking to grow some plants for low effort, easily controlled, independent of climate? yeah, it's great. But sustainable? Survivalist? No. It's a technological gimmick and a solution in search of a problem. But it is very neat!

Sully wrote: snip
But sustainable? Survivalist? No. It's a technological gimmick and a solution in search of a problem. But it is very neat!

Agreed. I've thought of having an aquaponics setup, using recycled plant scraps to help feed the tilapia, but decided that for me, using 40-50 oz cups until the plants get big enough to transplant out works better. A good stand near a window is made from near vertical 2x4s, with 90 deg V shelves set at 45 deg from the vertical. 4" spacing just fits the largest cups, and the spacing can be very close relative to the sunlight.

This is very good:

http://www.thelostways.com/tsl/

It comes as a video, but you can use "stay on page" to get the text.