Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:I'd like to know what junction, short of the Manticoran junction is most valuable. Perhaps as a strategic base of ops for the League. In essence, the junction that would be analogous to the League's Iwo Jima.

If we knew all the Bridges and Junctions, we might be able to answer that for a particular moment in time.

Erewhon is the only other Junction we know of that has a terminus inside the League, but no direct connection to Manticore or Haven.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:
Also, what is the most strategically valuable wormhole junction to both the League and the GA?

Weird Harold wrote:Manticore. Duh!

Of course. That's why I initially said "not considering the Manticore and Haven system. Because, well, that's obvious.

I'd like to know what junction, short of the Manticoran junction is most valuable. Perhaps as a strategic base of ops for the League. In essence, the junction that would be analogous to the League's Iwo Jima.

I don't think there is one. The core of the League has a diameter far shorter than the average wormhole bridge. All of Battle Fleet's bases and facilities are located there. Economically, they did rely a great deal on the network as a whole, but had access to so many that any single one becomes muted. They don't rely on any wormholes the way the SEM now needs the Manticore Junction to communicate with its Silesia and Talbott territories, as well as their allies in Beowulf, Haven and Erewhon.

Unfortunately for the SL, Laocoon took most or all of them out of play. Erewhon is probably the next most strategically useful after Manticore, as it provides a shortcut closer to Haven. Then there's Visigoth, but that's more of a liability now as 10th Fleet is at Mesa, one of its termini.

I believe the League's strategical situation would actually improve immensely if all wormholes suddenly shut down or disappeared. It would devastate the GA and be a significant setback for the MA.

cthia wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Those aren't being deployed like buckshot. All you may really need is one near a target group - beyond that, it's mostly to cover yourself against losses of them. Ideally you can recover them too, though often enough you can't.

Begs apology Jeff. I was referring to the method of propulsion. Is this some sort of mega-hydraulic propulsion system? Which, to me, suggests some sort of runway in the boat bay. Akin to the hydraulic systems on deck of aircraft carriers to launch much lighter planes. Three drones being deployed is buckshot enough. That's the mass of over 400 automobiles in a single launch.

Since the recon drones are launched from the boat bays, which are on the bottom of the ship, you don't actually want to launch them too quickly. Just kick them loose hard enough that they don't risk colliding with the aft hammerhead, but not hard enough that they risk getting near the planes of the wedge, then let them fall astern as you accelerate. Use the presser part of a tractor/presser unit to shove them out a 10 cm per second or less and it's probably fine.

Once clear of the aft of the wedge the drone brings up it's own wedge and any initial acceleration imparted by the launch system becomes basically irrelevant.

(IIRC some of Maxxq's renderings of the Star Knight's boat bay show the recon drone hanger within it)

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:
Also, what is the most strategically valuable wormhole junction to both the League and the GA?

Weird Harold wrote:Manticore. Duh!

Of course. That's why I initially said "not considering the Manticore and Haven system. Because, well, that's obvious.

I'd like to know what junction, short of the Manticoran junction is most valuable. Perhaps as a strategic base of ops for the League. In essence, the junction that would be analogous to the League's Iwo Jima.

munroburton wrote:I don't think there is one. The core of the League has a diameter far shorter than the average wormhole bridge. All of Battle Fleet's bases and facilities are located there. Economically, they did rely a great deal on the network as a whole, but had access to so many that any single one becomes muted. They don't rely on any wormholes the way the SEM now needs the Manticore Junction to communicate with its Silesia and Talbott territories, as well as their allies in Beowulf, Haven and Erewhon.

Unfortunately for the SL, Laocoon took most or all of them out of play. Erewhon is probably the next most strategically useful after Manticore, as it provides a shortcut closer to Haven. Then there's Visigoth, but that's more of a liability now as 10th Fleet is at Mesa, one of its termini.

I believe the League's strategical situation would actually improve immensely if all wormholes suddenly shut down or disappeared. It would devastate the GA and be a significant setback for the MA.

It sounds as if Erewhon would be the League's Iwo Jima. The League has to strategically get inside of the GA's reach. If they can get back on balance.

cthia wrote:It sounds as if Erewhon would be the League's Iwo Jima. The League has to strategically get inside of the GA's reach. If they can get back on balance.

Nowhere near it. For starters, Erewhon controls it and it's still way out there - all it does is cut about 30% or 40% off journeys, if you're sending the ships from Sol to Haven.

Realistically, the League doesn't have a chance of survival. The balance is too out of its favour, unless its enemies gives it five or ten years to recover, rebuild and rearm.

That doesn't mean it can't cause damage whilst it goes down. Likely in the form of battlecruisers sent off to raid targets 6 months away at best h-space speeds. And using Battle Fleet to intimidate potential secessionists who aren't Beowulf.

cthia wrote: What target in League space would be the most strategic for the GA to hit? Or has the wormhole junctions satisfied that objective?

Weird Harold wrote: That's a moving target for the GA. The Wormhole termini were at the top of the list to start with; now protecting Beowulf is probably a high priority. What comes next is mostly going to be diplomatic overtures to the 25% that supported Beowulf in the Solarian Legislature vote.

War with the Solarian League isn't one that can be won by smashing things just because there's a war on.

While I concur that the Wormholes and Beowulf have high priority, there are going to be some things that need to be smashed (it's military SF, after all... .

I suspect the Yildun System will be visited early on in the next book by a certain cigar-smoking admiral who has made a bit of a name for himself dismantling enemy facilities behind the lines...

cthia wrote:Also, what is the most strategically valuable wormhole junction to both the League and the GA?

Weird Harold wrote: Manticore. Duh!

Indeed.

I would, however, expect the SLN to counterattack at the nearest wormholes, to try to 'win' a victory somewhere against the limited forces deployed at many (currently).

However, I did an old thread with a 'what-if' attack like this some time ago and the consensus was that the ISLN would probably be toast anyway, or take such losses that it wouldn't fool the SL fleet, even if the propaganada folks make it sound like a 'famous victory'..

We shall see, eventually.

Hutch wrote:While I concur that the Wormholes and Beowulf have high priority, there are going to be some things that need to be smashed (it's military SF, after all... .

Sure there are going to be battles, many around wormhole termini, but they will be, by and large, defensive on the part of the GA. The more the GA can demonstrate self-defense (i.e. the SLN came to them) the better the diplomatic case with individual SL members.

Hutch wrote:I suspect the Yildun System will be visited early on in the next book by a certain cigar-smoking admiral who has made a bit of a name for himself dismantling enemy facilities behind the lines...

Yildin is somewhat a special case -- it would be an attack on TIY rather than the SLN, because TIY was complicit in the Monica conspiracy to attack the Lynx terminus. I do agree that Yildin will be "attacked" but probably with sufficient force to guarantee surrender with all documentation intact.

Hutch wrote:I would, however, expect the SLN to counterattack at the nearest wormholes, to try to 'win' a victory somewhere against the limited forces deployed at many (currently).

Yep, persistent attacks on various wormhole termini are going to happen with disastrous results for the SLN.

More military action is going to "cluster" around convoy defenses; that is where the SLN (primarily Frontier Fleet) can generate favorable conditions. The primary problem is going to be the distance to any GA convoy activity -- there will be precious few targets inside the SL.

SWM wrote:That's so far after Flag in Exile that the situation would be completely different. If Theisman had killed Honor Harrington and wiped out the Grayson fleet and construction facilities, Haven might have even won the war long before 1915.

Though it seems probable that if the first war got sufficiently desperate for Manticore, they would have made the concessions necessary to bring in the Andies, and if they didn't wait too long to do that, then I don't see how Haven wins even without Grayson-inspired tech.

drothgery wrote:

SWM wrote:That's so far after Flag in Exile that the situation would be completely different. If Theisman had killed Honor Harrington and wiped out the Grayson fleet and construction facilities, Haven might have even won the war long before 1915.

Though it seems probable that if the first war got sufficiently desperate for Manticore, they would have made the concessions necessary to bring in the Andies, and if they didn't wait too long to do that, then I don't see how Haven wins even without Grayson-inspired tech.

drothgery, that seems likely. At least unless something spooked Haven into make a Beatrice style all-or-nothing assault on Manticore. If they did that it's possible that they'd have Manticore's surrender before they could reach out to the Andies.

Then the Andies have to decide whether to declare war on their own hook (with whatever distant "free-Manticoran fleet" might be able to coordinate with them) and try to throw Haven back out of Manticore before they can really entrench and start siphoning its economy to strengthen their own.

drothgery wrote:

SWM wrote:That's so far after Flag in Exile that the situation would be completely different. If Theisman had killed Honor Harrington and wiped out the Grayson fleet and construction facilities, Haven might have even won the war long before 1915.

Though it seems probable that if the first war got sufficiently desperate for Manticore, they would have made the concessions necessary to bring in the Andies, and if they didn't wait too long to do that, then I don't see how Haven wins even without Grayson-inspired tech.

I'm not sure about that. Manticore didn't really trust the Anderman Empire. The Empire was overtly expansionist, after all, and made clear its desire for territory that Manticore considered inside its sphere of influence. I'm not convinced that, without Harrington and without provocative incursions by Haven into Silesia, that relations with the Andermani would have thawed enough for Manticore to call them for help. The Andermani would be as likely to sieze the Wormhole Junction as Haven, given the opportunity.