Honorverse ramblings and musings

There are some heads of state I wouldn't want to stick in a warship because they might start thinking they actually have any business being anywhere near a fire fight. Give them weapons and they'll want to shoot back becoming a legitimate target in the place. The only thing a ship with the Queen on it should be doing in combat is running for it. Weapons are too much of a temptation to disregard that objective.

Considering StateSec had intended to use the missile drones against Navy "mutineers" would using an SD for the royal yatch have even materially increased the chance of survival?

What about armoring a smaller vessel like an SD but leaving out all the weapons and control links and such? Would stripping out the offensive weapons (and other non-survivability related military equipment) of a CA or BC free up enough mass to put SD armor on the outer hull?

cthia wrote:AFO is NOT a cheap vehicle or cheap to operate. All of the constant security measures implemented to protect our President including AFO comes at a horrendous cost to our taxpayers. Not a single American would propose to begin cutting costs there.

You obviously missed the budgetary battles over the cost of the 747-200A/VC-25 aircraft currently used as preisdential transports. There is some conservative outrage over the cost of the proposed upgrade to 747-8 aircraft, but there doesn't seem to be the opposition (yet) that the change from VC-135s to VC-25 (707 to 747) generated.

cthia wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:[Being on an SD is] not so much for the protection of the Salamander. It's to maintain command of the fleet, and to do so compatible with the fleet's general effectiveness. The flag bridge and staff support portions of a SD are a rather trivial portion of the total SD, which is built to fight. It's built to be right there where fire is being sent out and received - built to deliver it, built to take it. Putting a commander in that keeps the commander where she needs to be to work, and it's not taking the ship away from where it does its work or diverting it from it.

That may have rang true, when her name was just Honor and she wasn't as important to the war effort. And it indeed may continually ring true in general. The moment that she became known as the Salamander is the moment that argument won't get off the Senate floor. How important has the Salamander become to the war effort? How instrumental has Honor been to Manticore's survival? To Grayson's survival? To Haven's survival? And now to the GA's survival? I posed this question before, "How many lives, SDs, fleets of SDs and Manticoran credits has Honor become worth?" It isn't a conversation of which I'd want Honor privy but it has been answered countless times by individual officers. By Truman when she removed the safety interlocks and risked an entire ship and the lives of the entire crew as well as her own to bring back the cavalry in time, with Honor's survival in mind. When White Haven lit a fire under the asses of his fleet - risking lives in kind - by responding as quickly as he dared, reciprocally taking risks with the safety interlocks as well.

Honor is important, is an understatement. Her death would have meant the death of many more spacers and the lost of many more ships -- in at least three separate systems. You protect your most valuable resources At All Costs because the butchers bill you save will be much greater. And if you think her Monarch and anyone in the RMN worth the starch in their uniform thinks any differently then you're drinking up the Old Tilmans! lol

Cthia,

I am afraid that you are VASTLY overestimating the importance of Honor Harrington. The life of Honor Harrington by herself is not worth fleets of ships. Truman did not pull out the safeties just for Honor Harrington--she did it for two whole Manticoran warships plus a brand new allied planet, and potentially hundreds of thousands or millions of dead civilians. The RMN has put Honor on a well-defended superdreadnought in the most powerful fleet ever not to protect Honor Harrington, but because that is where Honor Harrington can do the most good. The fleet isn't there to protect her--it is there to be used (and potentially lost) at her direction. Honor serves to give her own life, if need be, to protect the Empire, not the other way around. And if Honor dies, it will not be a crisis for the Empire. The sacrifices she has made will not be in vain after her death. The lives she has saved, the changes she has brought about internationally, and the people she has taught will carry on.

At Grayson, Queen Elizabeth was remarkably well protected. She may not have been in a warship herself, but she was surrounded by warships protecting her. At no time was she vulnerable to an assassin. Her ship was deep inside an allied system, an ally which had a top-ten navy protecting it. There was no intel suggesting any special threat. Security was tight. There was absolutely no reason for concern. If it were not for an unknown technology, there would have been no danger to the Queen at all.

There are limits to what precautions a reasonable person will take. Manticore was more than reasonable in its precautions. You can't protect against everything.

cthia wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:[Being on an SD is] not so much for the protection of the Salamander. It's to maintain command of the fleet, and to do so compatible with the fleet's general effectiveness. The flag bridge and staff support portions of a SD are a rather trivial portion of the total SD, which is built to fight. It's built to be right there where fire is being sent out and received - built to deliver it, built to take it. Putting a commander in that keeps the commander where she needs to be to work, and it's not taking the ship away from where it does its work or diverting it from it.

That may have rang true, when her name was just Honor and she wasn't as important to the war effort. And it indeed may continually ring true in general. The moment that she became known as the Salamander is the moment that argument won't get off the Senate floor. How important has the Salamander become to the war effort? How instrumental has Honor been to Manticore's survival? To Grayson's survival? To Haven's survival? And now to the GA's survival? I posed this question before, "How many lives, SDs, fleets of SDs and Manticoran credits has Honor become worth?" It isn't a conversation of which I'd want Honor privy but it has been answered countless times by individual officers. By Truman when she removed the safety interlocks and risked an entire ship and the lives of the entire crew as well as her own to bring back the cavalry in time, with Honor's survival in mind. When White Haven lit a fire under the asses of his fleet - risking lives in kind - by responding as quickly as he dared, reciprocally taking risks with the safety interlocks as well.

Honor is important, is an understatement. Her death would have meant the death of many more spacers and the lost of many more ships -- in at least three separate systems. You protect your most valuable resources At All Costs because the butchers bill you save will be much greater. And if you think her Monarch and anyone in the RMN worth the starch in their uniform thinks any differently then you're drinking up the Old Tilmans! lol

SWM wrote:Cthia,

I am afraid that you are VASTLY overestimating the importance of Honor Harrington. The life of Honor Harrington by herself is not worth fleets of ships. Truman did not pull out the safeties just for Honor Harrington--she did it for two whole Manticoran warships plus a brand new allied planet, and potentially hundreds of thousands or millions of dead civilians. The RMN has put Honor on a well-defended superdreadnought in the most powerful fleet ever not to protect Honor Harrington, but because that is where Honor Harrington can do the most good. The fleet isn't there to protect her--it is there to be used (and potentially lost) at her direction. Honor serves to give her own life, if need be, to protect the Empire, not the other way around. And if Honor dies, it will not be a crisis for the Empire. The sacrifices she has made will not be in vain after her death. The lives she has saved, the changes she has brought about internationally, and the people she has taught will carry on.

At Grayson, Queen Elizabeth was remarkably well protected. She may not have been in a warship herself, but she was surrounded by warships protecting her. At no time was she vulnerable to an assassin. Her ship was deep inside an allied system, an ally which had a top-ten navy protecting it. There was no intel suggesting any special threat. Security was tight. There was absolutely no reason for concern. If it were not for an unknown technology, there would have been no danger to the Queen at all.

There are limits to what precautions a reasonable person will take. Manticore was more than reasonable in its precautions. You can't protect against everything.

VASTLY?

Nah. I wasn't campaigning for the importance of Honor Harrington inasmuch as the importance of the Salamander. You missed that in my post.

cthia wrote:That may have rang true, when her name was just Honor and she wasn't as important to the war effort. And it indeed may continually ring true in general. The moment that she became known as the Salamander is the moment that argument won't get off the Senate floor. How important has the Salamander become to the war effort? How instrumental has Honor been to Manticore's survival? To Grayson's survival? To Haven's survival? And now to the GA's survival? I posed this question before, "How many lives, SDs, fleets of SDs and Manticoran credits has Honor become worth?" It isn't a conversation of which I'd want Honor privy but it has been answered countless times by individual officers. By Truman when she removed the safety interlocks and risked an entire ship and the lives of the entire crew as well as her own to bring back the cavalry in time, with Honor's survival in mind. When White Haven lit a fire under the asses of his fleet - risking lives in kind - by responding as quickly as he dared, reciprocally taking risks with the safety interlocks as well.

RFC spoke on this very matter some time ago, in the very thread that I referenced upwind regarding Honor's worth. IIRC. RFC said something akin to Honor not having reached the point yet at that timeline of the series, where that would be true. Implying that at some point that would be true. My reference to that "point" is when she became known as the Salamander.

Point being, there is a point where Honor's value becomes far more valuable to Manticore than a fleet of SDs. Ask Elizabeth. Ask Caparelli. Ask Benjamin. Ask any of the officers worth asking. Hell, ask Cordelia Ransom, St. Just, Eloise, Theisman, Tourville, who would have gladly dispatched a couple fleets if guarantee of the Salamanders head was assured.

Guys, guys, guys. Elizabeth should have been traveling in a capital ship. Whether one commandeered just for that one trip, or purposely built -- be it an SD or a BC -- she should NOT have been sent out in an eggshell.

I'll yield on an SD compromising for a BC as High Ridge ultimately suggested. Fine enough.

Late Edit:
Clarifying the above post and remembering where RFC showed up. I had complained, similarly to now, of the time that Honor was placed in command of a LAC. Why would someone so valuable be placed in command of a LAC?

That's when RFC chimed in.

.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:AFO is NOT a cheap vehicle or cheap to operate. All of the constant security measures implemented to protect our President including AFO comes at a horrendous cost to our taxpayers. Not a single American would propose to begin cutting costs there.

You obviously missed the budgetary battles over the cost of the 747-200A/VC-25 aircraft currently used as preisdential transports. There is some conservative outrage over the cost of the proposed upgrade to 747-8 aircraft, but there doesn't seem to be the opposition (yet) that the change from VC-135s to VC-25 (707 to 747) generated.

I did miss that Harold and I appreciate the post greatly. FMI. It is very interesting -- things that make you go "hmmm."

However, I'd consider that to be more like government in-fighting.

I seriously doubt that the average American would feel that way. IMO.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Ok, the USN has less carriers than Manticore has SD(P)s, but the US Army has more M1 tanks. Yet they don't allocate one of those for the President's personal transportation -- despite the fact that the presidential limos are far more vulnerable to even light anti-tank weapons that the hull of a main battle-tank.

Nearly always it just doesn't make sense to give the head of state protection equal to the toughest piece of military hardware you have in somewhat widespread deployment.

But but but... FDR had a tank.

http://forgottenhistoryblog.com/preside ... limousine/

Johnathan_S wrote:
Even in '41 there's a far cry betweeen Capone's armored car, with 3,000 pounds of steel plate and bullet resistant windows, and an M3 Stewart tank, with tons of armor.

The Presidents, starting with FDR, have armored cars, not tanks. They give protection against handguns and rifles, but are less defended than tanks against heavier weapons.


It's a reasonable tradeoff, it provides protection against the kind of attacks that are more likely without the expense and image issues necessary to protect against the greatest number of improbable threats.

lol

But that's an unfair analogy Johnathan. To make things even, you'd have to make Capone's car an AMC Pacer with lots of glass, totally pervious to any weapon available and apt to attack it.

That would just about make things even. Just about square.

.

cthia wrote:However, I'd consider that to be more like government in-fighting.

I seriously doubt that the average American would feel that way. IMO.

Actually, I remember it because of some very rancorous debates on various forums I frequented at the time. I don't know if "internet conservatives" and "internet liberals" represent "average Americans" but it was definitely more than congress-critters who opposed such an expensive aircraft to "ferry the President and his cronies around at taxpayer expense."

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:However, I'd consider that to be more like government in-fighting.

I seriously doubt that the average American would feel that way. IMO.

Actually, I remember it because of some very rancorous debates on various forums I frequented at the time. I don't know if "internet conservatives" and "internet liberals" represent "average Americans" but it was definitely more than congress-critters who opposed such an expensive aircraft to "ferry the President and his cronies around at taxpayer expense."

I think that qualifies as average enough.

At any rate, I'd sure like the results of an honest poll of the average man in the street. It is very interesting.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Cthia,

I am afraid that you are VASTLY overestimating the importance of Honor Harrington. The life of Honor Harrington by herself is not worth fleets of ships. Truman did not pull out the safeties just for Honor Harrington--she did it for two whole Manticoran warships plus a brand new allied planet, and potentially hundreds of thousands or millions of dead civilians. The RMN has put Honor on a well-defended superdreadnought in the most powerful fleet ever not to protect Honor Harrington, but because that is where Honor Harrington can do the most good. The fleet isn't there to protect her--it is there to be used (and potentially lost) at her direction. Honor serves to give her own life, if need be, to protect the Empire, not the other way around. And if Honor dies, it will not be a crisis for the Empire. The sacrifices she has made will not be in vain after her death. The lives she has saved, the changes she has brought about internationally, and the people she has taught will carry on.

At Grayson, Queen Elizabeth was remarkably well protected. She may not have been in a warship herself, but she was surrounded by warships protecting her. At no time was she vulnerable to an assassin. Her ship was deep inside an allied system, an ally which had a top-ten navy protecting it. There was no intel suggesting any special threat. Security was tight. There was absolutely no reason for concern. If it were not for an unknown technology, there would have been no danger to the Queen at all.

There are limits to what precautions a reasonable person will take. Manticore was more than reasonable in its precautions. You can't protect against everything.

VASTLY?

Nah. I wasn't campaigning for the importance of Honor Harrington inasmuch as the importance of the Salamander. You missed that in my post.

RFC spoke on this very matter some time ago, in the very thread that I referenced upwind regarding Honor's worth. IIRC. RFC said something akin to Honor not having reached the point yet where that would be true. My reference to that "point" is when she became known as the Salamander.

[/quote]
I didn't miss it; I find it irrelevant. Honor has been the Salamander since Honor Among Enemies. She was the Salamander long before you joined the Forums and asked that question of RFC. Her importance has not increased since you asked that question of RFC, because there have not been any new books about Honor Harrington since you joined the forum. It is only your perception of her importance that has increased, because you had not yet read all of the books at that time. If David said that Honor had not yet reached that point, then Honor still has not reached that point.

I say again--the RMN is not putting Honor in the middle of a huge fleet to protect her. They are putting her there because she can use that fleet well. If the RMN were trying to protect Honor at all costs (as you keep saying), they would not be sending her into battle! Yes, you are vastly overestimating Honor's importance.

Guys, guys, guys. Elizabeth should have been traveling in a capital ship. Whether one commandeered just for that one trip, or purposely built -- be it an SD or a BC -- she should NOT have been sent out in an eggshell.

I'll yield on an SD compromising for a BC as High Ridge ultimately suggested. Fine enough.

And I will continue to disagree. Elizabeth was extremely well protected at Grayson. Assassins could not get to her, enemy ships could not get to her, no enemy got anywhere close to her. And if Honor had not luckily noticed the stealth missiles when she did, even the modified BC(P) that Elizabeth has now might not have been able to keep Elizabeth from being killed by that assassination attempt. You cannot defend against every unforeseen danger. The protection Elizabeth had was reasonable.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Cthia,

I am afraid that you are VASTLY overestimating the importance of Honor Harrington. The life of Honor Harrington by herself is not worth fleets of ships. Truman did not pull out the safeties just for Honor Harrington--she did it for two whole Manticoran warships plus a brand new allied planet, and potentially hundreds of thousands or millions of dead civilians. The RMN has put Honor on a well-defended superdreadnought in the most powerful fleet ever not to protect Honor Harrington, but because that is where Honor Harrington can do the most good. The fleet isn't there to protect her--it is there to be used (and potentially lost) at her direction. Honor serves to give her own life, if need be, to protect the Empire, not the other way around. And if Honor dies, it will not be a crisis for the Empire. The sacrifices she has made will not be in vain after her death. The lives she has saved, the changes she has brought about internationally, and the people she has taught will carry on.

At Grayson, Queen Elizabeth was remarkably well protected. She may not have been in a warship herself, but she was surrounded by warships protecting her. At no time was she vulnerable to an assassin. Her ship was deep inside an allied system, an ally which had a top-ten navy protecting it. There was no intel suggesting any special threat. Security was tight. There was absolutely no reason for concern. If it were not for an unknown technology, there would have been no danger to the Queen at all.

There are limits to what precautions a reasonable person will take. Manticore was more than reasonable in its precautions. You can't protect against everything.

VASTLY?

Nah. I wasn't campaigning for the importance of Honor Harrington inasmuch as the importance of the Salamander. You missed that in my post.

RFC spoke on this very matter some time ago, in the very thread that I referenced upwind regarding Honor's worth. IIRC. RFC said something akin to Honor not having reached the point yet where that would be true. My reference to that "point" is when she became known as the Salamander.

SWM wrote:I didn't miss it; I find it irrelevant. Honor has been the Salamander since Honor Among Enemies. She was the Salamander long before you joined the Forums and asked that question of RFC. Her importance has not increased since you asked that question of RFC, because there have not been any new books about Honor Harrington since you joined the forum. It is only your perception of her importance that has increased, because you had not yet read all of the books at that time. If David said that Honor had not yet reached that point, then Honor still has not reached that point.

I say again--the RMN is not putting Honor in the middle of a huge fleet to protect her. They are putting her there because she can use that fleet well. If the RMN were trying to protect Honor at all costs (as you keep saying), they would not be sending her into battle! Yes, you are vastly overestimating Honor's importance.

Guys, guys, guys. Elizabeth should have been traveling in a capital ship. Whether one commandeered just for that one trip, or purposely built -- be it an SD or a BC -- she should NOT have been sent out in an eggshell.

I'll yield on an SD compromising for a BC as High Ridge ultimately suggested. Fine enough.

And I will continue to disagree. Elizabeth was extremely well protected at Grayson. Assassins could not get to her, enemy ships could not get to her, no enemy got anywhere close to her. And if Honor had not luckily noticed the stealth missiles when she did, even the modified BC(P) that Elizabeth has now might not have been able to keep Elizabeth from being killed by that assassination attempt. You cannot defend against every unforeseen danger. The protection Elizabeth had was reasonable.

Sorry for the late edit to the previous post. But you are wrong. RFC was commenting...

Late Edit:
Clarifying the above post and remembering where RFC showed up. I had complained, similarly to now, of the time that Honor was placed in command of a LAC. Why would someone so valuable be placed in command of a LAC?

That's when RFC chimed in.

Much has happened since Harrington was allowed to command something so easily destroyed.

But it's a moot point, since now Royal Yachts are fully armored warships.