Guns, Guns Guns

The E wrote:Through superior...

You specifically do NOT need "superior" of either economy or philosophy. You just need it to catch the right interests.

The E wrote:By the definition of the first kind of Empire, America isn't one. On the contrary, America is the liberator, the saviour from oppression.

Really... Trying to take over after the French left Vietnam, oh yes how very liberating indeed to try to keep the rich bigwigs in power against the will of the people.

Overthrowing the monarchy of Hawaii, who was at least not hated or reviled, and to some extent even liked by the people there. Saying otherwise would mean that anyone that could depose any of USA last 3 presidents would be justified in invading USA.

Why don´t you explain also why USA during its existence has been involved in more military interventions, than about half of Europe together? More often than not very much against the will of the locals.

The "liberators from oppression" is a nicely mythical piece of propaganda, but it has very little to do with truth.
Why don´t you ask the natives of USA about it?

Why don´t you think about why USA needs all those fleets all over the world? And more military bases outside its own territory than ALL other nations in the world have combined.

Oh my, perhaps, oh gasp, it might be because that allows projection of military power, or the THREAT OF IT.

Gunboat diplomacy it used to be called, by nations who were honest about being empires.

Check this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... operations
And think seriously about how many of those were for reasons of maintaining or getting US influence through military force. Lots and lots...

The E wrote:There are three kinds of power you can use to build your empire. First, and most obviously, force of arms. You occupy and you kill every dissenter until no dissenter is left. This is easy to recognize, and what I think you understand as imperialist tactics.

Or you threaten to use the military rather than actually use it.

The E wrote:In short, it doesn't matter if you extend your empire through force, or by presenting yourself as the best alternative. You are still extending your empire. You are still imperialist.

Quite.

Tenshinai wrote:

The E wrote:By the definition of the first kind of Empire, America isn't one. On the contrary, America is the liberator, the saviour from oppression.

Really... Trying to take over after the French left Vietnam, oh yes how very liberating indeed to try to keep the rich bigwigs in power against the will of the people.

Overthrowing the monarchy of Hawaii, who was at least not hated or reviled, and to some extent even liked by the people there. Saying otherwise would mean that anyone that could depose any of USA last 3 presidents would be justified in invading USA.

Why don´t you explain also why USA during its existence has been involved in more military interventions, than about half of Europe together? More often than not very much against the will of the locals.

The "liberators from oppression" is a nicely mythical piece of propaganda, but it has very little to do with truth.
Why don´t you ask the natives of USA about it?

Why don´t you think about why USA needs all those fleets all over the world? And more military bases outside its own territory than ALL other nations in the world have combined.

Oh my, perhaps, oh gasp, it might be because that allows projection of military power, or the THREAT OF IT.

Gunboat diplomacy it used to be called, by nations who were honest about being empires.

Check this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... operations
And think seriously about how many of those were for reasons of maintaining or getting US influence through military force. Lots and lots...

I should have been more clear in my post about how I was channeling the stance PeterZ and others are taking here. I do not personally believe it, in fact, I quite agree with you on this topic.

During the last gulf war I saw a US sergeant being interviewed. He seemed to be a decent person, and admitted puzzlement as to his reception. "We're here to liberate them from oppression, why do they seem to hate us?"
Saddam was a sh*t, but to the average Iraqi the US troops were foreign infidel invaders killing their soldiers and citizens just to get control of their country and its oil.
While the US hasn't in the main conquered countries to formally incorporate them in an empire, they definitely have used force to expand their sphere of influence and protect the commercial interests of their moneyed elite.
Try to think how well the US would accept Mexico sending armed drones over the border to attack targets in the US, just as the US does in Pakistan without their approval. There does seem to be a belief that might equals right, and the US has the right to set the rules.

The E wrote:
I should have been more clear in my post about how I was channeling the stance PeterZ and others are taking here. I do not personally believe it, in fact, I quite agree with you on this topic.

Lol, ok. I thought it looked a bit weird...

Daryl wrote:During the last gulf war I saw a US sergeant being interviewed. He seemed to be a decent person, and admitted puzzlement as to his reception. "We're here to liberate them from oppression, why do they seem to hate us?"
Saddam was a sh*t, but to the average Iraqi the US troops were foreign infidel invaders killing their soldiers and citizens just to get control of their country and its oil.
...

The clash between US propaganda/indoctrination, and the real world.

Tenshinai wrote:

Daryl wrote:During the last gulf war I saw a US sergeant being interviewed. He seemed to be a decent person, and admitted puzzlement as to his reception. "We're here to liberate them from oppression, why do they seem to hate us?"
Saddam was a sh*t, but to the average Iraqi the US troops were foreign infidel invaders killing their soldiers and citizens just to get control of their country and its oil.
...

The clash between US propaganda/indoctrination, and the real world.

@ Tenshinai Kinda like your propaganda/indoctrination...how's your good buddy Putin doing?

Guys stifle the personal attacks before the thread gets 'Duckked'

Poker

smr wrote:
@ Tenshinai Kinda like your propaganda/indoctrination...how's your good buddy Putin doing?

Ah no, i grew up with the threat of Soviet invasion as a very constant feature. You know, actually living close enough for that to be completely realistic rather than mythical makebelief.

With my country spending enough to be able to put about a tenth of the population in the field as trained soldiers. That would equate to USA having around 32 million in the military.


How´s your good buddy McCarthy? You know, the guy with all the witchhunting and persecution of people who dared to not agree with the indoctrination?

gcomeau wrote:Whether we're talking about socialist Scandanavians or the "I'm terrified of socialism" United States the rights and privileges the state allows it's citizens are determined by those citizens because those citizens vote on their governments.

"Nonsense."
Who do you vote for? Has anyone come up to you and told you "It's your turn to decide who gets to run for office"? Who gets to choose who gets to run? YOU don't!
When you put all the power into the government, then those in charge of running the government have all the power.

gcomeau wrote:The only thing you need to make sure citizens maintain sovereign control over their rights and freedoms is to maintain the integrity of the democratic voting system. Which is completely independent of whether socialism is being practiced or not.

Yea, that worked soooo well with Moa, Stalin and HITLER.

gcomeau wrote:Of course it works. There's nothing magic about the US...

Now we see your problem - of-course there is. The (until recently) freest Nation in the history of humanity.
Everyone else envies Americans for our freedom but can't quite get it themselves, then when we try to help they lash back like a spoiled child "leave us alone". you wish you had the freedom of Americans. Like a movie I just saw with John Goodman. he said: "America is the nation of FU" (paraphrase) "America was founded on FU, You got a King, a huge army, the worlds largest navy? FU". That's the freedom of America and the freedom that's being stolen from us, and more importantly, our children and children's children, and your children's children. everyone in the world could have that freedom if they demanded it loud enough, instead they shout the anti-American, anti-Freedom party-line that those in the government tell the brain-washed masses to spout (which includes the lie about free people being "brain-washed"), so as not to threaten their power grab. You cant "brain-wash" a free man.

Realized something in '08: The main problem with a Democracy is the 1-person-1-vote system. when (by definition) 1/2 the population has a 2 digit IQ and probably a lot more than 1/2 have the equivalent lack in wisdom. Need to develop a way to test wisdom levels and give voting power based on that (1 vote per point). Ask nearly anyone "what do you think of politicians?" they invariable answer "liars and thieves". Ask why they vote for someone they invariably answer "I like what he says" That makes no sense. Ask a socialist why they support socialism it's because the government can control business - so you want both the Government and business controlled by a bunch of liars and thieves (& the same group of them instead of 2 separate groups at odds with each other) ...yea real smart...

So, what's with this tripple barrel shot gun I keep hearing about?
(Blatant thread hijack back to topic)

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